He could do the smoothest shakes/lip trills, as evidenced at 1:20 on the Stella link and at the key change in I Can't Get Started.
Sometimes his phrases were just so sassy they make me smile. _________________ Craig Mitchell
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:13 am Post subject: Snobbish Taste
Robert P wrote:
rothman wrote:
From a blindfold test to Miles in the late sixties, addressing some key points as well as offended by a television appearance:
--Goin' to Chicago Blues--
(Live at Carnegie Hall)
(edited)
[i]"It's Al Hirt. I think he's a very good trumpet player. For anyone that feels that way, I guess he hits them. He's a good trumpet player, but that's some corny-ass s**t he plays here.
They want him to be fat and funny and talented, but he ain't. They want something that looks good on television, fat, with a beard, and jovial and jolly.. And he's a nice guy; it's a drag. ..To do this in front of some white people,
Al did a completely different thing than Miles. Miles had opinions - he's not the defining voice of "history". I don't view his music as more valid than Al Hirt's just because jazz snobs like him.
I'd rather be beaten with a chain than listen to Bitches Brew or hear him rasp, screech and flutter-valve his way through the Fillmore East albums again. When I hear Sketches Of Spain what I mostly think of is how much better it would have been if someone with more solid chops had done it.
Especially in the latter part of his career Miles pursued material that he could navigate within his limits. At a certain point he put in a harmon mute, wore funky Michael Jackson outfits, blew at the floor and hoped no one noticed he could barely play anymore. There's not a single chart on Horn A Plenty Miles could even attempt to play on his best day.
Miles's comments gave me the impression that he thought Al Hirt was a capable and talented musician who owed it to himself to cultivate a more serious image. It was like he was saying, "The guy can *play* but he is out there acting like a fat clown performing corny music". I agree there is hypocritical snobbery going on as far as musical taste and visual presentation are concerned.
FWIW, if Miles were alive and eavesdropping on this conversation, I bet he would agree with you that he didn't have the pre/post-retirement chops to play any chart on Horn A Plenty. I also bet that his response would also have been defensive in tone, vulgar, and extremely rude. The guy was not a nice man, to say the least. He deliberately cultivated a bad attitude and went out of his way to promote the idea that he could be mean-spirited and spiteful for any reason or sometimes no reason at all.
Miles's comments gave me the impression that he thought Al Hirt was a capable and talented musician who owed it to himself to cultivate a more serious image. It was like he was saying, "The guy can *play* but he is out there acting like a fat clown performing corny music". I agree there is hypocritical snobbery going on as far as musical taste and visual presentation are concerned.
FWIW, if Miles were alive and eavesdropping on this conversation, I bet he would agree with you that he didn't have the pre/post-retirement chops to play any chart on Horn A Plenty. I also bet that his response would also have been defensive in tone, vulgar, and extremely rude. The guy was not a nice man, to say the least. He deliberately cultivated a bad attitude and went out of his way to promote the idea that he could be mean-spirited and spiteful for any reason or sometimes no reason at all.
Certainly no University jazz studies would suggest that his coolness leaves a lot to the imagination ? Imo the smartest thing he ever did was enroll at Juilliard, then drop out spending hours in search of Charlie Parker, giving him a place to sleep, befriending, and then onto recording with him. He understood the material and excelled in his own way, but it's abundantly clear that Charlie was not awed by him.
It says something to read of a party in the fifties, a little before his death where Parker saw Clifford Brown and took him off to the side of the room with the comment, "I hear what you're doing, but I don't believe it.."
Miles's comments gave me the impression that he thought Al Hirt was a capable and talented musician who owed it to himself to cultivate a more serious image. It was like he was saying, "The guy can *play* but he is out there acting like a fat clown performing corny music". I agree there is hypocritical snobbery going on as far as musical taste and visual presentation are concerned.
FWIW, if Miles were alive and eavesdropping on this conversation, I bet he would agree with you that he didn't have the pre/post-retirement chops to play any chart on Horn A Plenty. I also bet that his response would also have been defensive in tone, vulgar, and extremely rude. The guy was not a nice man, to say the least. He deliberately cultivated a bad attitude and went out of his way to promote the idea that he could be mean-spirited and spiteful for any reason or sometimes no reason at all.
Certainly no University jazz studies would suggest that his coolness leaves a lot to the imagination ? Imo the smartest thing he ever did was enroll at Juilliard, then drop out spending hours in search of Charlie Parker, giving him a place to sleep, befriending, and then onto recording with him. He understood the material and excelled in his own way, but it's abundantly clear that Charlie was not awed by him.
It says something to read of a party in the fifties, a little before his death where Parker saw Clifford Brown and took him off to the side of the room with the comment, "I hear what you're doing, but I don't believe it.."
You make some very incendiary comments that belie your ignorance about jazz in the bebop era and the players. First of all, Bird was no in awe of ANYBODY, save maybe Art Tatum! I mean this guy spent years playing with Diz and with him was the co-creator of bebop. What the f*** did he have to be in awe of? Secondly, the fact that he hired Miles to play in his band shows that, in fact, he had VERY high regard for him. It's amazing the things I hear people say about players that belies their ignorance. I'm not a Miles Davis fanboy. I'd probably hate him if I met him in person, from the information I've heard about him. But the guy was a monster musician and trumpet player. Do you know anybody else that actually changed the course of jazz several times? He introduced a new approach with 'Birth of the Cool', his work with Gil Evans was groundbreaking, once again he introduced a new approach with 'Kind of Blue' introducing a much wider use of modality in jazz, he successfully blended straight ahead post bop with free jazz with his quintet of the sixties (another introduction to a new approach?), the set the world on its ear by creating the jazz fusion idiom. This is the record of his work and legacy so the least we can do is get our facts straight.....
You make some very incendiary comments that belie your ignorance about jazz in the bebop era and the players. First of all, Bird was no in awe of ANYBODY, save maybe Art Tatum! I mean this guy spent years playing with Diz and with him was the co-creator of bebop. What the f*** did he have to be in awe of? Secondly, the fact that he hired Miles to play in his band shows that, in fact, he had VERY high regard for him. It's amazing the things I hear people say about players that belies their ignorance. I'm not a Miles Davis fanboy. I'd probably hate him if I met him in person, from the information I've heard about him. But the guy was a monster musician and trumpet player. Do you know anybody else that actually changed the course of jazz several times? He introduced a new approach with 'Birth of the Cool', his work with Gil Evans was groundbreaking, once again he introduced a new approach with 'Kind of Blue' introducing a much wider use of modality in jazz, he successfully blended straight ahead post bop with free jazz with his quintet of the sixties (another introduction to a new approach?), the set the world on its ear by creating the jazz fusion idiom. This is the record of his work and legacy so the least we can do is get our facts straight.....
And on the subject of ignorance...earlier you mentioned 'if' Charlie had said such a thing about 'Just Friends' ? That has long been established and I assume you have read this yourself. But you question whether he actually did. As far as being in awe, besides Art Tatum --- Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Buster Smith, Jimmy Dorsey, Bartok and some others.
I'm trying to convey to some that avoid anything remotely corny and don't connect emotionally or get much feeling from Al - that Miles built a whole career largely featuring space and 'subtle' effects. He once characterized his style as being 'sweet' verses previous hard bop style. Does that strike you a bit self aggrandizing, to imply that he advanced the music in a significant way? Making it more palatable, less elusive, was the idea.
The fact that CP hired him is complimentary, but at the time there weren't that many guys walking around like Fats Navarro. Thus, he was encouraged and he found himself. Add a nice appearance, clothing, attitude, and being a good draw in clubs. A mistake years ago was in attributing the status of 'monster', later reinforced when he hired people like Ron Carter, Tony Williams, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb, Hank Mobley, Gil Evans, Cannonball, all great players who respected him. With association, extension....he's every bit as talented as they are.
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 Posts: 397 Location: The Great White North
Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:15 am Post subject:
No one can refute Al’s raw ability to play the trumpet. Amazing technique, power, range, sound, etc. Regarding his ability as a jazz player, I have a Downbeat interview he did back in the 60’s where he states that he didn’t consider himself a jazz player, i.e. improvisationalist. I always thought of him more as an interpreter. That said, some of his Dixieland soloing is amazing. He may have worked out his solos in advance, but you’d never know. Concerning the criticism about his the pop oriented nature of many of his recordings, keep in mind this was the 1960’s Herb Alpert was at the top of the charts. This is the stuff that was selling, so that’s what RCA put in front of him to play. You can’t judge him as a player based on the pop stuff. Would any serious musician want to be known for a song like Java? Yet, it won a grammy in 1964, and likely made him a lot of money over the years, and it’s one of the least technical things he ever put on a record. He was an amazing player. _________________ MF Fan
__________
L.A. Benge 5x
Holton MF3
Lead Trumpet - My Basement Jazz Orchestra
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Snobbish Taste
rothman wrote:
khedger wrote:
snipsnipsnip
And on the subject of ignorance...earlier you mentioned 'if' Charlie had said such a thing about 'Just Friends' ? That has long been established and I assume you have read this yourself. But you question whether he actually did. As far as being in awe, besides Art Tatum --- Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Buster Smith, Jimmy Dorsey, Bartok and some others.
snipsnipsnip
Get your facts straight - I never said 'if' Charlie Parker said 'Just Friends' was his favorite piece. Here's what I said:
"I'm really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but it's getting difficult. Bird cited 'Just Friends' as his favorite recording. There are many reasons why he may have chosen this cut, but that doesn't mean we can immediately dismiss the rest of his work!"
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 7:51 pm Post subject:
Al Hirt didn't just play Dixieland and corny pop stuff. He was on the road with some big name swing bands before. Al grew up in New Orleans. I don't think he sold out. I think he was playing what he loved. And you could see the joy it brought him. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:22 pm Post subject:
I personally think how valid one's taste is depends on how wide one's exposure is. If one digs Al Hirt over Miles and has pretty much only listened to the Tijuana Brass and Candy in the Horn, I question the value of their statement that Al Hirt is the cat's meow.
But if someone has listened to Hirt, Miles, Woody Shaw, Ruby Braff, Kenny Wheeler and more, and says that they like Al Hirt the best, well that's their informed taste and they have a right to it. Broad perspective, to me, brings greater authority.
Personally, I had several Al Hirt albums as a young man and appreciated his technique. I liked his playing on those lbums very much. But I spent more time listening to, and believing he had more depth, to Miles Davis. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
I personally think how valid one's taste is depends on how wide one's exposure is. If one digs Al Hirt over Miles and has pretty much only listened to the Tijuana Brass and Candy in the Horn, I question the value of their statement that Al Hirt is the cat's meow.
But if someone has listened to Hirt, Miles, Woody Shaw, Ruby Braff, Kenny Wheeler and more, and says that they like Al Hirt the best, well that's their informed taste and they have a right to it. Broad perspective, to me, brings greater authority.
Personally, I had several Al Hirt albums as a young man and appreciated his technique. I liked his playing on those lbums very much. But I spent more time listening to, and believing he had more depth, to Miles Davis.
Some excellent points. Where I differ is the last part on the idea of having a reserve or depth.. Credit is due him in having a honed sharp ear for the structure of a tune, and that he's seldom hampered by the chords in any way. He deserves admiration for that. On the other hand, his solos usually adhere to a rhythmic pattern like a meandering stream, then all of a sudden a high tone that strikes the ear like burnt toast. He perserveres on longer solos in a manner that is downright punishing to himself at times---finishing in one piece which imo is a feat by itself.
In other words, it becomes one dimensional, unlike the recordings [all] of CP which are three dimensional, and a richer listening experience as a result. And it's a great point that we should never dismiss the rest of his work, even if he cited a particular recording as his favorite.
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:00 am Post subject:
rothman wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
I personally think how valid one's taste is depends on how wide one's exposure is. If one digs Al Hirt over Miles and has pretty much only listened to the Tijuana Brass and Candy in the Horn, I question the value of their statement that Al Hirt is the cat's meow.
But if someone has listened to Hirt, Miles, Woody Shaw, Ruby Braff, Kenny Wheeler and more, and says that they like Al Hirt the best, well that's their informed taste and they have a right to it. Broad perspective, to me, brings greater authority.
Personally, I had several Al Hirt albums as a young man and appreciated his technique. I liked his playing on those lbums very much. But I spent more time listening to, and believing he had more depth, to Miles Davis.
Some excellent points. Where I differ is the last part on the idea of having a reserve or depth.. Credit is due him in having a honed sharp ear for the structure of a tune, and that he's seldom hampered by the chords in any way. He deserves admiration for that. On the other hand, his solos usually adhere to a rhythmic pattern like a meandering stream, then all of a sudden a high tone that strikes the ear like burnt toast. He perserveres on longer solos in a manner that is downright punishing to himself at times---finishing in one piece which imo is a feat by itself.
In other words, it becomes one dimensional, unlike the recordings [all] of CP which are three dimensional, and a richer listening experience as a result. And it's a great point that we should never dismiss the rest of his work, even if he cited a particular recording as his favorite.
...
It takes a special aesthetic sense to consider Miles Davis' playing a 'one dimensional'.
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 9:49 am Post subject:
been a while since i was exposed to somebody who does not understand what miles is. I remember people like that back in college, usually classical players who were not trumpet players. Even the classical trumpet crowd pretty mucg got miles. I will admit there are some spots in his vast recorded output that dont work, but the description above does not describe those spots.
This person has apparently not heard the carnegie hall concert, the live four and more set (specifically "all of you") porgy and bess, nefertiti, milestones, kind of blue, kilmanjaro, round midnight, 58 sessions (!!!!) and on and on.
This person has apparently not heard the carnegie hall concert, the live four and more set (specifically "all of you") porgy and bess, nefertiti, milestones, kind of blue, kilmanjaro, round midnight, 58 sessions (!!!!) and on and on.
We agree on 'Carnegie Hall' being a bright spot in his recorded output. The whole point often missed is that the instrument presents serious problems to him in terms of getting around the horn. His decision to go with a Heim mouthpiece that promotes the feeling of wood, was not a good thing for him either.
With these thoughts in mind, have a listen to fairly typical performance. Yet ask yourself if 'all is well and good' with it. JMO...the lady's concerned expression to the left is telling.
In regard to the incident years ago of a 'brick' that was said to have hit Al in the chops during a parade:
A friend who occasionally sees one of Al's clarinet players...put a call to him recently and was told that the brick 'never actually happened'. He says what happened was that Al had been drinking heavily, then fell, or passed out. Rather than tarnish a reputation with alcohol, this might have been preferred. A few guys here might know or confirm..
A friend who occasionally sees one of Al's clarinet players...put a call to him recently and was told that the brick 'never actually happened'. He says what happened was that Al had been drinking heavily, then fell, or passed out. Rather than tarnish a reputation with alcohol, this might have been preferred. A few guys here might know or confirm..
Years ago I was told by an instrument sales rep who asserted he had personally delivered horns to Al that Al had been well lubricated and walked into a lamp post - presumably horn first - and messed up his chops and they came up with the brick story because it sounded better.
I of course have only this guy's say-so but that's what he said. But the brick story just doesn't ring true. He was supposedly on a float at the time according to the story. If someone heaved a brick or large rock hard enough to sail through the air and managed to hit him square in the chops it would have done a lot more than bloody his lip. It would surely knock out teeth, possibly break bone.
Further the only accounts I can find of the incident all depend on Al's statement. There's a newspaper article but again it's just recounting Al's story. I can't locate a single corroborating witness, police report, no description of the alleged assailant, nothing. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:47 am Post subject:
Robert P wrote:
rothman wrote:
A friend who occasionally sees one of Al's clarinet players...put a call to him recently and was told that the brick 'never actually happened'. He says what happened was that Al had been drinking heavily, then fell, or passed out. Rather than tarnish a reputation with alcohol, this might have been preferred. A few guys here might know or confirm..
Years ago I was told by an instrument sales rep who asserted he had personally delivered horns to Al that Al had been well lubricated and walked into a lamp post - presumably horn first - and messed up his chops and they came up with the brick story because it sounded better.
I of course have only this guy's say-so but that's what he said. But the brick story just doesn't ring true. He was supposedly on a float at the time according to the story. If someone heaved a brick or large rock hard enough to sail through the air and managed to hit him square in the chops it would have done a lot more than bloody his lip. It would surely knock out teeth, possibly break bone.
Further the only accounts I can find of the incident all depend on Al's statement. There's a newspaper article but again it's just recounting Al's story. I can't locate a single corroborating witness, police report, no description of the alleged assailant, nothing.
Maybe a couple of guys that nobody could ever find tried to rob him and beat him up in broad daylight......=
Curious what you think of this. If you like it I recommend checking out the album it's from Horn A Plenty - I believe the whole thing is up on Youtube.
Question, or disappointment about Horn a Plenty, is that somehow everything ended up a little on the bright side imo, as if the engineers that Billy May used were not the same as RCA victor..
If someone could one day 'enhance' the recording in order to remove the ultra crisp highs, and widen mid range, that would be great. For ex., Java has never been taken too seriously, but if you've heard it with headphones, it can hold your attention with just the sound.
All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3, 4Next
Page 3 of 4
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum