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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:38 am Post subject: |
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jhahntpt wrote: | That whole "dialing in" thing works with poorly made mouthpieces that have scaring on the inside of the throat or backbore. Any mouthpiece using modern manufacturing processes has totally smooth on the inside and will not change in any meaningful way when rotated.
Curry are the best affordable option that are smooth, I know my Monette pieces are smooth, and every ACB mouthpiece I ever owned was too.
I remember Trent showing me a cross section of a Bach mouthpiece and I was horrified by the gashes left in it from the manufacturing process. |
My reply:
First, it isn't just the variable of the mouthpiece, but of the horn, the mouthpiece fitting and relationship to the leadpipe, and the leadpipe itself that you are trying to match. Anyone who has told you that it's only poorly made mouthpieces that it helps is, and I hate to make statements like that, wrong. The exterior shape can also be made wrong, and there is not much that most can do to fix that. In that instance, when the taper is off on the exterior, it is best to return the mouthpiece for replacement.
Second, I would wager I have played Monette mouthpieces longer than you have been alive (I started in 1988, never stopped, play them now), and clocking has helped every Monette mouthpiece on every horn (mine or my students), including my Monette trumpets (3). Is the difference huge on every horn? No, but it is present, and it does exist.
Third, older Bach "modern era" mouthpieces did suffer from quality control issues, you are absolutely right. But, they weren't all a dramatic failure, and many times taking a reamer to the throat to straighten out the minor issues made them a better playing mouthpiece. I always look to see if the error is correctable or needs a return. Out of center backbores must be returned, although I have found on some horns they work great. Throats that aren't well cut can often be altered with a 27 reamer to make work, sometimes even better.
So, while there are instances where some makers in the past have had issues, they have largely corrected those issues. Curry, Monette, ACB...all top of the line makers who I respect and recommend for their attention to detail. A college student will be able to make that decision and work to pay for some of the higher priced ones above. Ask a parent in a rural community to pay for a Monette, and it won't happen. Often times, one works with what one has in order to keep a student playing.
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:53 am Post subject: |
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The other thing I would Say Albert is that at the cheaper end kids in Europe can do very well with the Laussman made mouthpieces (Gewa / Arnolds / Stoelzel brands). These are copied from 50s and 60s Bach mouthpieces that belonged to US servicemen in Germany and they are well made, consistent and a quarter of the price of a Bach. If money is tight it is a serious option for young players to get a decent start. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | The other thing I would Say Albert is that at the cheaper end kids in Europe can do very well with the Laussman made mouthpieces (Gewa / Arnolds / Stoelzel brands). These are copied from 50s and 60s Bach mouthpieces that belonged to US servicemen in Germany and they are well made, consistent and a quarter of the price of a Bach. If money is tight it is a serious option for young players to get a decent start. |
Great suggestion, except it is made in Europe. Midwest rural farm families buy American. Convincing them that Monette is an American was quite the ordeal... _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:18 am Post subject: |
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I can imagine.
We are pretty cosmopolitan here. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | I can imagine.
We are pretty cosmopolitan here. |
Thanks for taking that as I intended! No disparagement toward your suggestion at all! Have a great weekend!
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:31 am Post subject: |
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jhahntpt wrote: | That whole "dialing in" thing works with poorly made mouthpieces that have scaring on the inside of the throat or backbore. Any mouthpiece using modern manufacturing processes has totally smooth on the inside and will not change in any meaningful way when rotated.
....... |
I respectfully disagree. I have never noticed a night and day difference, but I do believe that “everything affects something”, in this case I think it can make a difference. Placebo? Maybe.....but it still works, IMO. BTW, all my equipment is in very good condition, no banged up mouthpieces or horns. So maybe the affect IS more pronounced on a scarred up mouthpiece, but I think it holds true for equipment in good condition also.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Years ago I bought a lead pipe from Blackburn. They were nice and sent two and told me to send back the one I didn't like.
After playing on the two and changing back and forth, I called them to say, I can't tell the difference. We had a nice talk about it and what was really different. My final response was maybe I'm just not a good enough player to notice. The lead pipe was a huge help to the trumpet but, 1 or 2?
The same thing could be going on with dialling in the mouthpiece. I tried it with different mouthpieces and I can't tell the difference. Doesn't mean there isn't a difference though. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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trumpethead Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 444 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I don't disregard the 'dialing-in' thing, as I've noticed it sometimes works, but not convinced that it might actually be due to how you're playing on the day. |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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trumpethead wrote: | I don't disregard the 'dialing-in' thing, as I've noticed it sometimes works, but not convinced that it might actually be due to how you're playing on the day. |
If you are dialing in the mouthpiece on the horn, you are finding the sweet spot of the instrument and mouthpiece and how the work together. Bad day or good, that spot should be in the same spot every time, because you are working to maximize the synergy between those two pieces. Your personal playing will be a slight variable, dictated by how much you practice and have used to develop a warm-up that gets you to the same "area" with your playing every day. The horn, if dialed in with a mouthpiece you are using should work and then the only variable left would be the player.
Dialing in should make the instrument consistent day to day, varying only then by how you play and how you feel that day.
Hope this helps a little...trying to clarify what I said that led you astray on dialing in the mouthpiece.
All my best,
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: |
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I didn't believe in 'dialing in' a mouthpiece either, until I had a really solid pro orchestral trumpeter mention to me that it made a noticeable difference (in sound) on his C trumpet setup.
I expressed some doubts similar to those already mentioned in this thread, so he said "let's try it out." then he proceeded to play something in his favorite position (and it sounded great as expected).
Then he rotated it a few times and played elsewhere. There was a noticeable change in tone color that I could hear. He started moving it around, without telling me which position he was using each time.
The key takeaway being that every time he put it back in his 'clocked' position, I picked that example as sounding 'better' than the previous one. It was rather interesting. Not quite a true blind test, but pretty close. I couldn't see where he had it rotated from where I was sitting out in front of the bell.
For those that want to 'blame' the mouthpiece for it making a difference, it was a CNC-made modern piece, made by a maker famous for his consistency. YMMV. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Mel Broiles was dialing in his mouthpieces in the 70's. According to what he said, he was interested in playing with the mouthpiece in the same position, since he thought that there were inconsistencies in the mouthpiece. Being that he used to modify his rims with a reed knife, I can believe that. He told me to pick a favorite position ( number up or whatever) and always put the mouthpiece in that spot. I never followed his advice, but I will see if it makes a playimg difference now, and try it. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9371 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | I didn't believe in 'dialing in' a mouthpiece either, until I had a really solid pro orchestral trumpeter mention to me that it made a noticeable difference (in sound) on his C trumpet setup.
I expressed some doubts similar to those already mentioned in this thread, so he said "let's try it out." then he proceeded to play something in his favorite position (and it sounded great as expected).
Then he rotated it a few times and played elsewhere. There was a noticeable change in tone color that I could hear. He started moving it around, without telling me which position he was using each time.
The key takeaway being that every time he put it back in his 'clocked' position, I picked that example as sounding 'better' than the previous one. It was rather interesting. Not quite a true blind test, but pretty close. I couldn't see where he had it rotated from where I was sitting out in front of the bell.
For those that want to 'blame' the mouthpiece for it making a difference, it was a CNC-made modern piece, made by a maker famous for his consistency. YMMV. |
But the real question is, did HE see where he was placing the mouthpiece each time? _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:08 pm Post subject: a little mouthpiece story |
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I agree with comments where people think they have found something special with a new mouthpiece only to be disappointed using it more later on. In all my playing I have used relatively few mpcs. Perhaps out of stupidity. I have had 5 or 6 Bachs, but for years the one I used exclusively was a 1C. I had a 5c and later after trying two JetTone mpcs. I bought a Bach 10 I 1/2EW, which was great for higher work and not so good lower register. The Jet Tones were great for high work too, but they are noticably lacking producing an orchestra or band sound; at least I thought so. Now, I have a 3C bach and ordered a 5B on the recommendation of a learned trumpet guru I respect. With any of the shallower pieces I somehow perceived my own tone as lacking. I will give you guys credit for having the patience to experiement and find something worth sticking with. If I wasn't an old worn out gasser now I would use the Bach 1C again, LOL Great topic folks |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:32 am Post subject: |
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This is a little off topic.
When I tried the new mouthpiece and played up to the high F effortlessly, something changed in my ambusher. Then when I wasn't able to do it again, something changed back.
I'm working now to figure out what changed so I can do it on any mouthpiece. Any ideas? _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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Flugelnut Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 478 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Just don't get ambushed again! |
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ottoa57 Regular Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2010 Posts: 86 Location: Macomb, Mi.
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: New Mpc not working? |
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I read through 2 pages of posts by some very seasoned and highly educated contributors. I sit here, contemplating should I ever broach the subject of mpc GAP, or go back to watching TV.
Whenever I decide to post or speak about mpc GAP I shudder, should I?
OH NO,,you're not going to start that BS are you? Well, I guess I'll post and see what happens. LOL
I have been fitting the Warburton mouthpiece system since 1986. Anyone who would like to touch base with Terry, he'll atest to you I am very good at what I do. I also do mpc/ trumpet set up and have measured mpc GAPS from zero to .340"
I am not surprised that picking up a mpc and playing it home, then on a gig and getting completely different results is very common. If anyone knows Donny Dyess and follows him, he is very, very sensitive about mpc gap and can tell immediately the difference in a 5.5 sleeve and a 5.25 sleeve.
I respect and admire Donny's playing and his work with his mpc's and trumpets.
Most players can tell ( feel ) the difference in .020" to .040" of GAP. So what is my point. With a set of calipers, even a toothpick and a marker...GAP can be measured.
If you are not comparing your OLD MPC and NEW contender at VERY NEAR the SAME GAP you are playing at now, the results will be ( IMHO x's 10) will be erratic and shooting completely in the dark.
Our face, and facial muscles are "used to" a certain "back pressure" which is primarily the Mpc GAP, please NOTE: I am not going to open this up to where the sound wave begins and more complicated discussions. I know there are more factors involved.
I am here only to suggest, use some calipers, a Warburton GAP CHECK, or a VMT made by Harrelson to check mpc GAP. It is something that is real because of the " physical space" created from the end of the mpc shank to the Venturi of the leadpipe.
I will also say, and will NOT suggest any particular GAP that is universal and what is better. I am sure through these pages and forums MPC GAP has been discussed to death!
There was no mention of GAP in this thread and I hope to shed some light on the inconsistencies of trying a new mouthpiece.
Thank you, _________________ Otto Alcon
Warburton Consultant since 1986
Stomvi Forte, w/AGR & full trim kit
Yamaha Flugel YFH 631
Getzen Eflat/D |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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If I go to the music store and try a mouthpiece on my trumpet, it works great and then go home and the same mouthpiece on my trumpet doesn't work well, how can that be gap? The gap didn't change. Isn't it more likely that it's me changing? _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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ottoa57 Regular Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2010 Posts: 86 Location: Macomb, Mi.
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Joe, unless you know what the gap's are on both mouthpieces, it's another parameter that must be know. With that said, did you change diameters? This would explain alot too! PM me..we can talk. _________________ Otto Alcon
Warburton Consultant since 1986
Stomvi Forte, w/AGR & full trim kit
Yamaha Flugel YFH 631
Getzen Eflat/D |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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ottoa57 wrote: | Hi Joe, unless you know what the gap's are on both mouthpieces, it's another parameter that must be know. With that said, did you change diameters? This would explain alot too! PM me..we can talk. |
New mouthpiece but the same one. You're thinking I'm comparing two mouthpieces going back and forth. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:13 am Post subject: Re: A little mouthpiece story. |
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trumpetchops wrote: | .
So, my conclusion. A change seems to help for the short term but, it's really the player. |
I don't think that's a logical conclusion at all. You've got a sample size of 1 mpc, and 2 playing attempts; not nearly enough to draw any conclusions from.
The biggest variable you don't seem to have factored in is stage volume, which doesn't exist in the practice room. Concepts like projection, penetration and efficiency come into play here. On the new mpc you might have all the penetration you need and be so efficient you're plenty loud out front but since your ears are on the wrong side of the bell to hear it you never know and think you need to play louder, and wind up shutting everything down. This is pretty common when going to a shallower mpc. Or, you really might not be able to play loud enough on the new mpc, so any gains in the practice room will never transfer to your big band.
There's lots of variables here. The only thing you've really discovered is you haven't gotten them all right yet. Maybe you can with the new mpc, maybe it has 1 or 2 parameters off, or maybe your old mpc is the best you'll ever have. Having enough volume with your sound to balance the band is an important concern. If a new mpc gives a sound that you have to play louder on, it may work against you. Or, working with someone out front you might find the answer is you really are loud enough but you need to adjust how you hear yourself in balance to the band. That can be a hard change to make, especially if you've played with this group for a long time. |
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