Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:35 am Post subject:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
I'm hearing a lot of problems just maintaining a consistent time structure totally independent of the issue of playing with correct jazz styling. Practicing with a metronome could help a lot in ingraining consistent time structure into your playing. That really has to come first before worrying about jazz styling because maintaining a consistent time structure is foundational to any type of styling.
Many times the player thinks they are maintaining a consistent time structure but playing back the recording shows otherwise. So, this is not necessarily a natural or inherent skill. Playing with a metronome is the most reliable way to train yourself to maintain consistent time. You build skills by starting with the most foundational and working up to the most specific as the foundational skills solidify. If I were you I wouldn't work on or even worry about jazz styling until I was rock solid in maintaining consistent time.
I turned off the metronome because of the ritard at the end. I constantly play with a metronome. If that isn’t helping my internal time clock............. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:42 am Post subject:
Irving wrote:
Maybe you should look to play somewhere where you don't have to play lead. If you play in the section you will be forced to listen to how the other guys are playing. You might learn a lot that way.
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:44 am Post subject:
Sorry if I missed anyone. It’s hard to keep up on the phone. I have read and am considering everything. Sorry if I challenge your view. I do that to myself too........... _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:52 am Post subject:
If anyone would like to record what I played to illustrate the right way to play it I would be glad to hear it. It should be easy enough to pick out. It starts on A in the staff and ends on A above High C. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
I turned off the metronome because of the ritard at the end. I constantly play with a metronome. If that isn’t helping my internal time clock.............
When I read this sentence, I remembered several topics that you might enjoy reading. While the metronome is important, there is another important piece to the puzzle related to the internal time clock:
I turned off the metronome because of the ritard at the end. I constantly play with a metronome. If that isn’t helping my internal time clock.............
Ever practice with a metronome like this? It doesn't really matter what you play.
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1023 Location: East Asia
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:45 pm Post subject:
Hey INTJ, just a note to say that I have sympathy for the predicament. I'm a new comeback player and am doing a solo piece recommended here and my playing is similar (hard to get timing right, can't play fast enough). Often we're told we'll get there if we go hard at it, but the overall question you ask (is it possible to just hit a ceiling and at what point do you throw in the towel?) is a valid one.
Weirdly, one thing that has helped me as a comeback player is playing along with my elementary school kids on violin. I also started reading the violin forums, looking at methods, buying instruments, etc., etc., etc. A perennial question for adult learners of violin is "how far can I go as an adult?" and sadly the answer from most of the pros is that if you didn't start as a kid or young teen there is simply a lot of repertoire that is going to be beyond you (in fact, quite a lot of it). I am kind of grateful that on Trumpet Herald this is not the default answer. At the same time, it may well be that most of us will be able to play some things well and stretch for some things, but that other entire areas will be out of our reach. For some that's range, but for others it likely includes intonation, rhythm, articulation and other skills.
The other advice here is solid. It may be getting lessons with several top players/teachers (beyond the one you've had) would help, or that more listening, or that playing with better players would help. But I just wanted to say that I understand and respect the core question you're asking.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9831 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:46 pm Post subject:
INTJ wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Less studying; more listening.
Listening how and to what? Analytical listening or just let it play? Big bands or combos? I have being listening for years, but obviously not doing it the right way.
Listen actively to recordings of great players. Anything Wayne Bergeron is on would be great. Listen to the One O'Clock Lab Band recordings. Listen to Doc Severinsen's Tonight Show Band Albums. And emulate.
When I listened to the video you posted, it just sounds kind of anemic - like you're holding back. Don't hold back. You be the boss!
Also, Jeff Smiley is right - these are skills that can be taught by a competent teacher if you find you can't pull it off on your own.
And do NOT give up. It's in you. And you'll find it.
I'm hearing a lot of problems just maintaining a consistent time structure totally independent of the issue of playing with correct jazz styling. Practicing with a metronome could help a lot in ingraining consistent time structure into your playing. That really has to come first before worrying about jazz styling because maintaining a consistent time structure is foundational to any type of styling.
Many times the player thinks they are maintaining a consistent time structure but playing back the recording shows otherwise. So, this is not necessarily a natural or inherent skill. Playing with a metronome is the most reliable way to train yourself to maintain consistent time. You build skills by starting with the most foundational and working up to the most specific as the foundational skills solidify. If I were you I wouldn't work on or even worry about jazz styling until I was rock solid in maintaining consistent time.
I turned off the metronome because of the ritard at the end. I constantly play with a metronome. If that isn’t helping my internal time clock.............
Record something that is in straight time with no ritard. We can't see the music and therefore wouldn't know that there's a ritard or how much of a ritard is called for so it just sounds like the time is lost.
I suggest recording something lots of players here would be familiar with. Maybe some Basie or Buddy Rich chart by Sammy Nestico or Don Menza, maybe a swinging blues, something where we can hear you swing through a constant tempo. Don't worry about playing anything with high notes. We need to get a good and solid example of your styling to begin to form an opinion about what's happening. _________________ HERMOKIWI
I guess I guess I should clarify. The video is the ending of the tune, the final
shout section. It’s a piece by Cassio Vianna—who just accepted the Jazz Studies Prof position at PLU—called “Scrabble” and I am playing it about 40 bpm under tempo.
Me being the stubborn type - so read my post dammit
What makes you think I didn’t?
Of course you read my post. No doubt.But I suggest that your´e off course!
Why is that? To give you an example of my own: in the brass band we´re about to play a score,presenting sextols (2xtriplets, sexteenth notes), 6 bars, tempo 64. If I try to play them I get out of tempo every time; trying to count them - doesn´t help. I just dont seem to have the feeling in my body. Doesn´t come natural to me. But - if I sing them, I begin to "smell" a rhythm, a pattern. Already, after 4-5 days practice singing them a lot I´m slowly getting a feeling. Don´t say this is easy.
And "read my post dammit" - not intended to aggravate you - but written because of my feeling that you read our posts like you read the music, only the syllables, the words but not the meaning, the music. I can relate to that - being so utterly eager to understand everything, not missing a single punctuation - very useful in my academic career, but sometimes amounting to not being able to see the trees because of the wood. Or the reverse.
So sing - simple melodies, like the one I suggested.....slowly slowly, then play it slowly slowly until you 1)get tired2)pissed off. And repeat!
Of course I might be off course - nevertheless I wish you well. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:35 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:22 am Post subject:
Here is the last page of the chart. Somebody record from measure 344 to the end—with the A above High C on the last note—and post it. Tempo is 180ish. It would be extremely helpful to hear it from a real lead player at that tempo.
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:51 am Post subject:
Since I was asked, here are some other videos of my playing, mistakes and all. These are all short excerpts except for the second video which is an entire tune. I won’t have time to record anything new for a while. I have two concerts and a lathe to get into my garage this weekend.
Joined: 19 Mar 2017 Posts: 48 Location: UK/Germany
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:21 am Post subject:
A lot of good advice has already been given and I can only emphasise the importance of listening and singing. Just start singing a phrase (after having listened to it extensively) to get an intuitive feeling for how you want it to sound. Conceptually, this is of course similar to how one emulates the sound when playing trumpet, but most people can do it more intuitively when singing.
After having listened to your recording, I think part of what is holding you back is that you're trying to articulate everything too cleanly. If you've ever written/transcribed a jazz tune in Sibelius and listened to Sibelius play it, you'll know it sounds awful, even though Sibelius does play the right notes, right articulation and in time. This is because Jazz simply needs to be imperfect and maybe even a bit dirty/unclean to sound just right.
Try phrasing the fast quaver lines less precise but more extreme, i.e. almost ghost tongue unaccented notes and emphasise the accented ones even more.
PS: Thoroughly enjoyed watching your other videos!
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3415 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:43 am Post subject:
INTJ wrote:
I have been taught, but have not learned.
No, you have not been "taught." You have been given information. Many "teachers" with impressive credentials merely give information. Those folks are actually a dime a dozen.
Read all the books you want. Listen to all the recordings. It's all information. Maybe you will process it, and maybe you will not.
Actual teaching is much more than giving information. I can give information or advice on an internet forum, and someone may even learn something, but that is not the kind of teaching that I'm talking about.
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1839 Location: Austin/New York City
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:31 am Post subject:
You're obviously obsessed with high notes, and not making music. I understand where you're coming from . . . high notes are fun. But, so is making music and making a band sound really great.
Why are you taking the last note up the octave? Are the rest of the trumpets also taking their note up? There's nothing more amateur hour sounding than a one trumpet playing an octave, 9th, 10th etc above 3 other trumpets.
High notes are fun, but if they don't serve the music, they're just serving the ego.
Here's your tune at 200. I'm playing the chart as written (except for the ritard at the end), because that's what all my heroes did, and that's how I like to play.
You've been given good advice in these 2 threads. All it takes is listening and committing to making music instead of just "making the high notes". Playing lead trumpet is so much more than just the high notes.
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:38 am Post subject:
Mike—thanks! There is a smoothness to your style I need to build
into my playing. I can hear it better when it’s played alone vs hearing it played with the band.
I do like high notes when they add to the tune. My jazz band director and composer of the tune likes the high note at the end of this piece. I take things up an octave ocassionally, though mostly I just work to get the tune sorted out.
To All,
There have been a couple of points discussed here that I think are key. I have been intently listening to big bands for a dozen years. These include: Gordon Goodwin, Jack Cortner, Count Basie, Tonight Show Band, Buddy Rich, Maynard. I have studied with a top notch teacher. What is missing is my internal rhythm.
Not just jazz rhythm but all rythm. I think that is where I need to start. While there has been a ton of good input here, I think Denny, Derek, and Justus said it in a way that resonated (pun intended) with me. When I have internalized rhythm, then the listening, singing, transcribing, and imitating will have a chance of taking hold. Also, maybe all that style stuff I know intellectually will take hold.
Jeff,
I get what you are saying about teachers. Not every student can learn from every teacher—even great teachers. That said, I tend to put the blame on the student when that student is me. It’s my job to take the info that is given and figure out how to apply it. No teacher can do it for me. I spent 11 of my 24 years in the USAF as an instructor pilot. I worked hard to tailor my instruction to the specific student,l and always looked to help him/her find those rare “aha” moments when they finally get some concept. The best learning usually happened when the student could start teaching me.
I will do this. I will look and see if I can find a teacher to help me with rythm and jazz style. It was gong to be my current jazz band director but he just got hired by a university into a tenure track position. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1811 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Video: Middle Aged Amatuer Lead Player w/Range but No S
INTJ wrote:
Here is an example of what I was talking about in the other thread. I know how this should sound. I know when to make notes short, when to back tongue, how hard to swing..........but I can’t seem to do it. My style is not right. I am performing this tune this weekend.
I've only briefly read the comments, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating what others have said.
My impressions:
You can play all the notes fine, so let's leave that aspect alone. You don't, to my ear, hold steady tempo, though. You also shorten long notes. The rhythms aren't crisp and distinct. You say you know exactly how it should sound, so I won't argue about that, but I will say virtually everyone I've encountered who struggles with passages, for whatever reason, says they know how it should sound. When asked to sing it, inevitably some areas are less clean than they'd like. These are usually the areas where they're also weak when playing. Interpret that as you will. I can't comment on whether or not this applies specifically to you, but, speaking in abstraction, I'd be comfortable betting on it, and I'm not a gambler.
A big part of style is in bringing out the movement and energy of the rhythms, and you're not really doing that here. There's also not much in the way of dynamics, beyond getting louder for the high notes. (IE - trumpet logic for dynamics, rather than musical logic for dynamics.) Finally, and I'll admit this is leveraging a lot of info from a small sample (and could be wrong, like all the rest I've written!) - but the fact that you're cutting off some notes short, or changing tempo during rests makes me wonder if you're really hearing *the rest of the music* in your head while playing, or if you're just focusing on playing notated pitches in your part, in sequence. If you want more style, knowing where you fit in the music is a huge part.
Hat's off to you for posting this, and seeking feedback. You've gotten lots of good input, especially from Mike Sailors. I hope you'll use it!
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