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Emilyplaystrumpet New Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2018 Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: Multiple tongueing |
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So I know a lot of people ask about double and triple tongueing, but I have a serious problem. I’ve been working on multiple tonguing for TWO years and it seems like I simply cannot do it. To elaborate, my tongue can move fast enough, and some random days I’ll play a double tongueing passage and it’ll sound quite good, but after I do it I’m not sure what I did differently to make it sound good and it’s completely inconsistent and 9/10 times it’s sounds bad. My problem is my “Ga” syllable sounds very closed off. I’ve worked on only playing passages using by ga tongue, I’ve worked on whole notes and scales only using the back of my tongue, and I can do it, but my tone sounds very closed off when I tongue with that. I’m not sure if that makes sense? I can da ga da ga (double tongue) fastly, but it always sounds super unclear due to my ga sounds closed off and not speaking correctly. I’d consider myself a generally advanced player as I’ve been accepted into a school of music, I’m majoring in Music Ed in the fall at a university, I have a nice big sound but I just can’t double tongue and that’s essential to moving forward in my playing. It’s been suggested from some of my lessons teachers in the past that I’m tongueing too hard, but others tell me I’m not, and that isn’t the problem at all. Because tongueing hard wouldn’t make it sound closed off. I record myself and listen to other trumpet players frequently but I cannot seem to match how their tongueing sounds.. so any tips? |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. I am a comeback player and not a pro or a teacher.
That said, I have never heard of using ga. My teachers stressed Tu Ku, Ti Ki for double. Tu Du Ku, Ti Di Ki for triple.
These all keep the front of the tongue involved.
Hopefully some heavyweights will add their advice. If nothing else your college trumpet professor will be able to help, so don’t panic. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I just checked my Arbans book and it uses Tu Ku also. Page 153 in my edition.
It specifically warns against using gu. |
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Emilyplaystrumpet New Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2018 Posts: 2
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Hmm. I am a comeback player and not a pro or a teacher.
That said, I have never heard of using ga. My teachers stressed Tu Ku, Ti Ki for double. Tu Du Ku, Ti Di Ki for triple.
These all keep the front of the tongue involved.
Hopefully some heavyweights will add their advice. If nothing else your college trumpet professor will be able to help, so don’t panic. |
Thanks for the feedback! I believe my teacher suggested ga so I would maintain a “light” sounded tongue. I’ll try out ka/ku |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:34 am Post subject: |
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I only recently have developed the ability to double and triple tongue. I didn't think that I was physically capable of doing it. My muscle coordination is terrible. However, I discovered, thanks to my teacher, Jeff Purtle, that you can learn to do it. The way he teaches is to practice A LOT using the "K tongue modified" technique. You can find examples on You Tube, Eric Bolvin has a good video:
Quote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep9Xj78AH1s | Basically, by practicing exercises using the K attack only, KA KA KA KA KA, over time the strength and coordination of the tongue improves.
You cannot become impatient and expect success overnight. There is no shortcut. You have to practice daily. The results come gradually, over months and years. But, anybody can learn the technique - even me.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:39 am Post subject: Multiple tonguing |
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Listen to those telling you to use the tu-ku, ta-ka, ti-ki sounds. Sharper and lighter. That way you won't feel like the tonguing is dragging. Do the passages with the mouthpiece only and work on the quality of the crisp tu-ku. Then play with the mpc. in the horn. The lighter you get used to making a clean sound just practicing without a mouthpiece even, the sharper the tonguing and faster you will be able to go. Good Luck |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:51 am Post subject: |
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1) start VERY slow
2)Continue playing k-tongue only passages to strengthen tongue
3)try to move k syllable as far forward in the mouth as possible
4)GRADUALLY gain speed
5)Practice this every day |
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DaveH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:15 am Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | I just checked my Arbans book and it uses Tu Ku also. Page 153 in my edition.
It specifically warns against using gu. |
Tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku for triple tonguing and tu-ku-tu-ku for double tonguing. That is the way I was taught.
The Arban book as mentioned above has many pages of exercise material to develop both triple and double tonguing ability.
As with most things, it is simply a matter of proper and consistent practice. Begin slowly in order to master the basic skill; speed will come fairly easily with proper practice and development of the basic skill. |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:35 am Post subject: |
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I have heard, read, and tried different things for multiple tonguing. Some days one works better than another. I have also read that different dialects and languages may pronounce the syllables different and that may change what players are taught. Most teachers I know tend to start with t-k or tuh-kuh but encourage players to try different syllables to see what works best for them. T-K (tee-kay), tu-qu (cue), tuh-kuh, dah-gah, duh-guh, too-coo, etc. Not something I have thought much about but I suspect different strokes work better for different folks... _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | 1) start VERY slow
2)Continue playing k-tongue only passages to strengthen tongue
3)try to move k syllable as far forward in the mouth as possible
4)GRADUALLY gain speed
5)Practice this every day |
This ^. There are other refinements you can experiment with to improve, like trying to hit the ka a little harder and the ta a bit lighter until you find the optimal balance. There are also several methods with exercises that mix up the ta and ka in different ways to help you develop independence and agility in using either. I think Franquin has the best guidance and exercises for this, for example, his suggestion that the airflow while multiple tonguing is like a ribbon that the tongue should not break. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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amtrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 341 Location: Western IL
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Your tongue does the exact same thing to pronounce dah-gah and tah-kah. The only difference is that the d and g are voiced consonants and t and k are unvoiced. Since we (hopefully!) aren't engaging the vocal cords when we play trumpet anyway, there is absolutely no physical difference between those two approaches. It may be that using one or the other gets you closer to the sound concept you want. For me, TK would lends itself to a crisper, more separated sound (because when we speak those syllables we stop the vibration of the vocal folds on the consonants) while DG would be more connected. When I teach multiple tonguing I generally want my students to play more legato to start with, then crisp it up later on, so I start with dah-gah but encourage them to try both. |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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After working on this for 2 years, it would be safe to say you are not doing this correctly and should change what yo are doing. In fact, this should have happened 1 year and 51 weeks ago!
It sounds for all the world as if you are trying to use the back of the tongue way too low and are possible engaging part of your throat or glottis or even voice unintentionally. The best thing to do right now is to completely and totally stop any and ALL attempts at multiple tonguing. Just forget a bit about what you have been trying to do, as you need to relearn this completely.
While you are forgetting, bone up on French diction and pronunciation, as the 'Tu' and 'Ku' are quite different to our way of saying it (yes, even Americans have it wrong. whoda thunk it, eh?). The 'Ku' is rather more forward in the mouth than the English pronunciation, so you'll need to roll with this for a time.
Once you have it down in your head, do all the slow K only practice you can, and get as fast as you can, just like the suggestions above. And while it sounds harsh, maybe it's time to find a new teacher?
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Can you sing tah-kah? If so, then you can double tongue. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 390 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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amtrumpet wrote: | Your tongue does the exact same thing to pronounce dah-gah and tah-kah. The only difference is that the d and g are voiced consonants and t and k are unvoiced. Since we (hopefully!) aren't engaging the vocal cords when we play trumpet anyway, there is absolutely no physical difference between those two approaches. It may be that using one or the other gets you closer to the sound concept you want. For me, TK would lends itself to a crisper, more separated sound (because when we speak those syllables we stop the vibration of the vocal folds on the consonants) while DG would be more connected. When I teach multiple tonguing I generally want my students to play more legato to start with, then crisp it up later on, so I start with dah-gah but encourage them to try both. |
Two points …
1. I’m neither a linguist nor a speech pahtologist but I feel that for at least some of us there is a bit of difference between the tongue function for (unvoiced) “T” and “D.” From only my own experience, I place the tip of my tongue slightly further forward to enunciate (whispered) “Tay” than for “Day.”
2. A point that I believe is essential in practicing multiple tonguing off the horn – DO NOT VOICE THE SYLLABLES BUT WHISPER THEM. To go along with amtrumpet's comment that we aren’t engaging the vocal chords when we play (unless we’re growling), do not engage the VC’s while practicing MT off of the horn. Most teachers and other colleagues have not been aware of this over the years and no band directors, in my experience, teach this although things might be different this far into the 21st Century.
-Denny |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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In my experience tonguing too hard is root for most multiple tonguing problems. I like the concept of striving to just bump the air, barely interrupting it (at least to get started). To achieve that I had great success using softer syllables such as daaa-gaaa, or duuu-guuu. I emphasize the long vowel to reinforce that the tongue should never play a roll in the cutting off the air, which is also fatal to multiple tonguing. T and K always seem to invite too strong an interruption of the air. If the air is interrupted only lightly then it seems to me much less likely that sound of articulation will be consequential. A key in this is to find where inside the mouth produces the softest and most agile tongue. As with flutter tonguing, there is a very specific tongue position that works best. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | In my experience tonguing too hard is root for most multiple tonguing problems. I like the concept of striving to just bump the air, barely interrupting it (at least to get started). To achieve that I had great success using softer syllables such as daaa-gaaa, or duuu-guuu. I emphasize the long vowel to reinforce that the tongue should never play a roll in the cutting off the air, which is also fatal to multiple tonguing. |
I like this approach. It mirrors my own approach that tonguing - at least conceptually - doesn't end notes, doesn't interrupt the air but just starts new notes. I looked up "articulate" and "articulation" recently and was surprised to find a medical definition that, to paraphrase, means the arrangement and joining together of the parts of the body - in other words, how the parts are connected. This idea of connectedness helped me figure out note connections, phrasing and improved my own musical articulation.
I think the idea of articulations joining notes rather than separating them would go a long way to making phrases smoother and more musical. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | cheiden wrote: | In my experience tonguing too hard is root for most multiple tonguing problems. I like the concept of striving to just bump the air, barely interrupting it (at least to get started). To achieve that I had great success using softer syllables such as daaa-gaaa, or duuu-guuu. I emphasize the long vowel to reinforce that the tongue should never play a roll in the cutting off the air, which is also fatal to multiple tonguing. |
I like this approach. It mirrors my own approach that tonguing - at least conceptually - doesn't end notes, doesn't interrupt the air but just starts new notes. I looked up "articulate" and "articulation" recently and was surprised to find a medical definition that, to paraphrase, means the arrangement and joining together of the parts of the body - in other words, how the parts are connected. This idea of connectedness helped me figure out note connections, phrasing and improved my own musical articulation.
I think the idea of articulations joining notes rather than separating them would go a long way to making phrases smoother and more musical. |
Never thought of it that way but I will from now on. Good work. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:35 am Post subject: |
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The analogy I have used for ages is that, if the airstream is like the flow of water from a faucet, then your tongue is like flicking your finger through the water stream. It is not turning the handle on and off. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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Blackquill Regular Member
Joined: 03 May 2018 Posts: 74 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I struggled with double tonguing for a long time. I began to learn double-tonguing as a sophomore in high school, but I didn't master it (at a moderate proficiency) until I was almost half-way through my sophomore year in college. It's one of the most difficult techniques to learn.
Here's one possible routine to go through.
1)Practice "k" tonging with just your own mouth (whisper) for a minute. Make it as pointed as possible, but also visualize it as a horizontal musical line. Pointed, but smooth!
2)Then add the "t" tonguing and practice double-tonguing with your mouth for another minute. Again, horizontal musical line.
3)Now do it on your trumpet! Do #1 and #2 as above in the same manner, practicing double-tonguing on the most basic exercises. Don't progress to more difficult exercises until you feel good about the basic ones.
Reminders:
-"k" is never going to sound precisely the same as "t", by the way.
-When double-tonguing is up to speed, the notes move fast enough that you rarely have to worry about making the notes "short". In fact, in most cases you should make the double-tongued notes as long as possible!
-Double-tonguing is a fairly gentle in the majority of music. Hard-tonguing such as in Scheherazade is less typical and that type of tonguing should be worked on AFTER mastering the gentler kind.
-to help with the taking the horizontal, smooth, gentle approach to double-tonguing, take a nice, round inhale consistently. Remember to relax! Be patient. Rest a lot while practicing double-tonguing, because they tend to wear your chops out quickly.
-crescendoing through to the end of double-tongued lines can help you feel the way they should be done... but be sure to learn to double-tongue without crescending, too!
I hope you might glean something from this post. _________________ Trumpet is for extroverts only... no, wait... Trumpet is also for introverts who need an avenue for extrovertism! |
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