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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject: Schilke, Scodwell, Edwards Flugels |
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Just back from Chuck Levin's music store in Silver Spring, Md. I had hoped to try a Kanstul 1025, but he didn't have any in stock. However, he did have a Schilke, a Scodwell, and an Edwards Flugel.
All three of these are very nice horns and I'd be happy to take any one of them home with me. The Edwards seemed to be the most open blow of the three. The Schilke and Scodwell were very similar and had a more traditional, flugel, blow. All three horns are fairly easy to play; they all played very nicely - very responsive. There were no dogs here; these are first rate horns.
As for sound, the Edwards seemed a little more trumpet-like than the other two, but it still had a flugel horn sound. The Schilke and the Scodwell had what I would describe as a more traditional, Couesnon Flugelhorn sound; both very nice indeed. However, from my player's ears, not out in front of the bell, there was something very nice about the Scodwell. It had sort of a deep, woody sound, especially in the lower half of the register, that I really liked.
I couldn't say that one horn was better than the others. I would think that different players would make different decisions based on their own preference. As I say, I think that I could be happy with any of the three. However, if I were going to put down the cash to take one home, I think of these three, I'd take the Scodwell. I have not played a flugel that sounds better than this one.
Warm regards,
Grits
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Tony Scodwell
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1961
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:40 pm Post subject: Scodwell flugelhorn |
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Hello Grits.
I am flattered to hear such nice things about my Scodwell USA flugelhorn. Thank you for being so objective. That's rare these days. Anyway, it might interest you to know that the origin of my flugelhorn stemmed from my Couesnon that I played for many years. I was pulling the leadpipe out farther than I thought and it occurred to me that intonation must be affected when the leadpipe is pulled out so far upstream from the valves. Wouldn't it make sense to add the length downstream from the valves? This led me to make the lower branch into the main tuning slide keeping the leadpipe tunable to make minor adjustments for a particular mouthpiece the player is using. Getting the tunable branch slide lengths correct was not trivial and with a fair amount of trial and some error I believe I hit the mark. The origin of my bell is Clark Terry's old Selmer for which I had the mandrel made. The goal was better intonation, better response while retaining the "proper" French sound with more clarity. The horns are finished in clear or brush lacquer and because of the "eye candy" factor, I also make them with a copper bell and tuning branch. The yellow brass horns are actually darker sounding but as I said, the eye candy appeal is pretty strong. I hope I haven't bored you with too much information but one last thing to mention...bottom sprung valves are mandatory for me for the correct bell bend and port alignment with the slides.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
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Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Tony,
I have a pretty specific idea of what I think a flugelhorn should sound like. I think that you pretty much nailed it.
Now, all I need to do is convince the wife...
Warm regards,
Grits
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Flugelnut
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 478
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:54 am Post subject: |
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Grits:
In your PFSSSSST! post you expressed satisfaction with your B&S Challenger flugel, so what made you go shopping for a Kanstul 1025?
Not just because of the funny sound, I suppose.
Also, how would you rate the B&S against the 3 flugels you tested?
I had a B&S on trial once, and returned it because it wasn't really better than threesome I have: 1978 B&H Sovereign, 1982 LA Benge 5, and 1989 Kanstul Besson Brevete. All different, all good.
Would like to hear of your impressions. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Flugelnut wrote: | Grits:
In your PFSSSSST! post you expressed satisfaction with your B&S Challenger flugel, so what made you go shopping for a Kanstul 1025?
Not just because of the funny sound, I suppose.
Also, how would you rate the B&S against the 3 flugels you tested?
I had a B&S on trial once, and returned it because it wasn't really better than threesome I have: 1978 B&H Sovereign, 1982 LA Benge 5, and 1989 Kanstul Besson Brevete. All different, all good.
Would like to hear of your impressions. |
Interesting question. The short answer is simple curiosity.
The longer answer is this. I wanted to try a Kanstul 1025 because it is a very popular flugel here on TH. It is a large bore flugel. The B&S is a small bore flugel. So, I wanted to know, as a matter of general interest, what the differences were between small bore and large bore flugelhorns.
What I hear people saying is that large bore flugelhorns play easier, more open, or at least more like a trumpet.
Now, from what I have heard on You Tube videos (not, in my estimation, a very reliable way to compare the sound of horns) the Kanstul 1025 has a more brassy, trumpet sound than my B&S. My theory is that the Kanstul probably plays easier, more open, more like a trumpet, but also sounds more like a trumpet. Now, that’s not a good thing or a bad thing. It’s simply a matter of preference. Some players like a flugel that kind lights up a bit. Evidently, that sound is actually fairly popular.
The best flugelhorn sound I ever heard came from the bell of Roy Hargrove’s Inderbinen Wood flugelhorn. I heard him play live the same evening that i tried the three flugelhorns I described. Listening to him play live, honestly, I thought that the sound of the Scodwell flugelhorn had some of the same characteristics of sound - I know that people will disagree with me. I’m just saying that I believe that Roy would sound just as good on the Scodwell as he does on the Inderbinen.
Now, how does my B&S compare to the Edwards, Schilke and Scodwell? That’s a question I wanted to know as well. By the way, I recently tried a Wild Thing flugel, another very nice horn. Here is my assessment. In terms of ease of playing, that is open blow, or trumpet like feel, I would say that the Wild Thing is the easiest to play, the Edwards second. The Schilke and the Scodwell are also easy to play and very responsive, but they feel more like my B&S, which I would rate dead last in ease of playing - though still not bad, actually, not that much different from the Schilke and Scodwell. In other words, the B&S plays like you would expect a normal, small bore flugel to play like. The Scodwell and Schilke play a little easier, but the differences are minor.
In terms of sound, the Scodwell was my favorite hands down. It sounds every bit as good as the Inderbinen. Surprisingly, I would say that B&S sounds very good and at least as good as the Schilke (very similar sound profile). The B&S and the Schilke sound very good indeed with the classic flugel sound, but they lack the wow factor that the Scodwell and inderbinen have. Now, that is very subjective. That is simply my opinion. Others look for different sound profiles. I still hove not played the Kanstul 1025 so I don’t know what I would sound like playing it. My guess is that it will not be as much to my preference as the other flugels, but I won’t know that until I try it. The Wild Thing and the Edwards had a similar sound. It is a flugle sound, but not my preferred sound profile. Now, they did sound very good, I don’t mean at all to knock the sound. Again, I suppose some would prefer the sounds of these horns, it is strictly a personal preference. By the way, all of this is based on what my ears hear behind the bell. I wish I could sit in front of the bell and listen. Also, I didn’t have a wide variety of mouthpieces to try and flugelhorns are very sensitive to mouthpieces.
Then there is the issue of which do you prefer, ease of playing or very minor differences in sound? There is no right or wrong answer to that question. The Wild Thing is really fun to play and it sounds very nice. Same with the Edwards. That’s why there are so many different horns on the market - different strokes for different folks.
I did gain a little more respect for the B&S that I already have. I had not played a flugelhorn until I bought that one off of Ebay. I really didn’t know what I had. It turns out that it sounds pretty darn good compared to the best horns that I have played.
Of all of the flugelhorns I have tried, my two favorites are the Scodwell and the Wild Thing. I like the way the Scodwell sounds and the Wild Thing plays, but neither are deficient in any way. Maybe I should buy one of both. Hmmm, that might be tough sell to the wife...
Warm regards,
Grits
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.
Last edited by Grits Burgh on Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nieuwguyski
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
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Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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The Kanstul 1025, at .415", is not a large-bore flugelhorn.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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Grits Burgh
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Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| nieuwguyski wrote: | | The Kanstul 1025, at .415", is not a large-bore flugelhorn. |
You are correct. The model number of the .421" bore horn is the 1525. That is actually the model that I was hoping to try out. I am curious to hear the difference in sound and feel the difference in playing.
Hey, I'm an old guy. 1025, 1525, not easy for old guys to keep the model numbers straight.
Warm regards,
Grits
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Grits Burgh wrote: | | nieuwguyski wrote: | | The Kanstul 1025, at .415", is not a large-bore flugelhorn. |
You are correct. The model number of the .421" bore horn is the 1525. That is actually the model that I was hoping to try out. I am curious to hear the difference in sound and feel the difference in playing.
Hey, I'm an old guy. 1025, 1525, not easy for old guys to keep the model numbers straight.
Warm regards,
Grits |
Weird answer. There are roughly three types of flügelhorns,
the Couesnon inspired small bore (0.410 - 0.421) flügels;
the Yamaha concept middle bore (0.433) flügels;
the trumpet based large bore (0.457 -0.460) flügels.
The Kanstuls you mentioned are both small bore horns. So are the WT and the Scodwell. The Yamaha 631 is a medium bore and with that one a whole bunch of Taiwanese and Chinese clones. Also the Inderbinen Wood and Stella are 0.433 bore.
Real large bore flügels can give the feeling of easy playing but I suppose that that's caused by the trumpet character of them (they are often built on a trumpet block).
But small bore flügels can play very easy though probably not as loud and with less air than the large bore flügels. You only have to back off a little bit.
I owned once a (small bore) Adams F1 flügel and though I didn't liked it too much the horn played very easy and open, more than my medium bore Jupiter 846. Bore is not THAT important. If there will be a difference in playing characteristics between the Kanstuls 1025 and 1525 it will probably be caused by other factors than the bore. |
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Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Delano,
All part of the education process. I am brand new to flugelhorns. This is why I am out trying different flugelhorns, to learn the details and experience the differences in playing. I have not run across a large bore flugelhorn yet and am curious to try one out.
Thanks for the information.
Warm regards,
Grits
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Trying out different flügels is good. But try them without too much concern about details. The important thing is whether a horn is built in balance, with good reponse, sound and intonation. The figures are secondary.
A little bit of a warning: for flügel purists a large bore flügel is not a real one.
The big bore has a price in a loss of some of the typical flügel timbre. They can be dark and mellow but some of the flügel edge is gone. I personally have no objection against a little trumpety flügelsound as long as the flügel timbre is there.
I have only once played a large bore flügel, the Getzen Eterna and it was not too bad. But this is it for me, OK, CT is of outer space but still:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwZiJAFWWfw |
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Flugelnut
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 478
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Grits:
Thank you for answering my questions in such detail.
I can understand you wanting to try a Kanstul 1525 (i think the 1025 would be fairly similar to your B&S), I've played flugels for 30+ years and i'm still curious how the ones play that I don't have.
My B&H Sovereign, although despised by many and harder to play well than my Benge and Kanstul Besson, is the most rewarding and special sounding of the three, when approached delicately.
Most flugel players I hear on YouTube play like trumpeters and make me wonder why they use a flugel in the first place.
Look for René Caron and Thierry Caens playing a duet and you'll hear what I mean.
By the way: they both play a B&S (3146 Brochon).
I'm rather surprised that the Scodwell plays as well as you describe, with its bell branches taper being interrupted by two cylindrical sections! |
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maynard-46
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Location: GEORGIA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:09 am Post subject: Schilke, Scodwell, Edwards flugelhorn |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxT_hOxTcDQ
'Nuff said!!
Butch
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TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL. |
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Harry Hilgers
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015
Posts: 637
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Schilke, Scodwell, Edwards Flugels |
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| Grits Burgh wrote: | Just back from Chuck Levin's music store in Silver Spring, Md. I had hoped to try a Kanstul 1025, but he didn't have any in stock. However, he did have a Schilke, a Scodwell, and an Edwards Flugel.
All three of these are very nice horns and I'd be happy to take any one of them home with me. The Edwards seemed to be the most open blow of the three. The Schilke and Scodwell were very similar and had a more traditional, flugel, blow. All three horns are fairly easy to play; they all played very nicely - very responsive. There were no dogs here; these are first rate horns.
As for sound, the Edwards seemed a little more trumpet-like than the other two, but it still had a flugel horn sound. The Schilke and the Scodwell had what I would describe as a more traditional, Couesnon Flugelhorn sound; both very nice indeed. However, from my player's ears, not out in front of the bell, there was something very nice about the Scodwell. It had sort of a deep, woody sound, especially in the lower half of the register, that I really liked.
I couldn't say that one horn was better than the others. I would think that different players would make different decisions based on their own preference. As I say, I think that I could be happy with any of the three. However, if I were going to put down the cash to take one home, I think of these three, I'd take the Scodwell. I have not played a flugel that sounds better than this one.
Warm regards,
Grits |
Grits, I just now saw your flugelhorn post.
I played flugel during my younger years. Life got in the-way of my music playing and my horns went a-way, I forgot where.
So a few years ago, just like you, I went through a similar search.
I mail-ordered in for trial several flugelhorns (forgot the brand names).
Based on a suggestion made by someone on this forum I tried the Kanstul 1525. (I will be forever thankful to this "someone".) It took me about 10 seconds to decide to buy this horn. It gives me that wonderful "flugelish" sound I am looking for while it seems like it plays itself so to speak.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Harry |
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