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trumpetgeek234 Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2001 Posts: 286 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:06 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
It seems like next year we are going to be playing "the rite of spring" by stravinsky.
Now I'd like to know what trumpet is used on the "trumpet in D" part? Seems like many play it on piccolo, but would a D-Trumpet be an option?
What do the greats like Phil Smith play it on?
I would also be grateful if someone could send me the part via eMail.
Peter |
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Mzony Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 998 Location: Honolulu, HI.
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:12 am Post subject: |
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I know that many of the "greats" use piccolo trumpets.
However, James Thompson and some other players like the D trumpet.
I actually like the D trumpet and I am sure that ALL of the vintage recordings from the 50's and 60's have the D trumpet in use.
Whatever makes YOU comfortable behind the horn is what YOU should use.
Mike |
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fuzzyjon79 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Apr 2003 Posts: 3014 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:18 am Post subject: |
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If you use piccolo in A on that piece, you could read it like it is in bass clef, up 1 whole step... I think that's how most players would play it if they used a picc instead of a D trumpet....I did that with the Vivaldi Gloria one year.. but it's been so long ago, I can't remember the exact transposition. That would be my personal preference. _________________ J. Fowler
"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!" |
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wiseone2 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2002 Posts: 750 Location: Brooklyn,NY
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Parts of the Rite are great on the Eb.
I can make more sound on the bigger horns-D, Eb
Wilmer
On 2003-10-10 05:12, Mzony wrote:
I know that many of the "greats" use piccolo trumpets.
However, James Thompson and some other players like the D trumpet.
I actually like the D trumpet and I am sure that ALL of the vintage recordings from the 50's and 60's have the D trumpet in use.
Whatever makes YOU comfortable behind the horn is what YOU should use.
Mike
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_________________ "Be sure Brain is engaged before putting Mouthpiece in gear"
S.Suark-1951 |
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johntpt 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 07 Feb 2002 Posts: 2284 Location: Toluca, Mexico
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:53 am Post subject: |
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If you use a piccolo for this part, try it on the Bb side. Ghitalla suggested this to me and it really works better than A IMHO.
G trumpet is also a good choice.
I saw the CSO play this about 10 years ago. Bud used some strange looking D trumpet and sounded pretty amazing!
JU |
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trumpetgeek234 Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2001 Posts: 286 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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I can't exactly remember what Phil Smith played it on, when I saw them do it in 2001. Actually I sat so far away it wasn't even possible, but as far as I can guess it was something other than a piccolo trumpet.
Well now, there seems to be a division between piccolo and D-trumpet use. For me I would think that D-trumpet would have a stronger sound, but also a higher risk of missing notes. I guess it wouldn't be all that good on my scherzer piccolo anyways, so I might as well get an Eb/D trumpet, which I could also use on a lot of other stuff.
Peter |
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tcutrpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2001 Posts: 794 Location: Great Lakes, IL
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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The recording I have with NY Phil sounds as if Mr. Smith is playing it on a picc trumpet. He seems to be one that stays pretty consistent with the equipment he uses on a piece. _________________ Matt Cyr
trumpetmc@gmail.com |
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trumpetmike Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2003 Posts: 11315 Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Use whichever instrument you like, so long as it sounds good.
My personal preference is for the sound of a D trumpet (not a great fan of the laser like piccolo that seems to be the current trend), but that is just me. I have played in orchestras where the principals have used piccolo and D trumpets, the sound is the important thing.
If we are thinking historically, the D trumpet is probably a more accurate representation of what Stravinsky wanted, but if we are to go down that route we should all put the instruments we currently use for orchestral playing back in their cases and bring out the small bore trumpets.
I agree with Johntpt that if you are going to use a piccolo a G trumpet is a good option - the sound of a D with the ease of accuracy of a piccolo.
In this piece (as in all playing) I think we should be willing to try everything (some conductors have a very specific timbral spectrum they are aiming for in this piece) and if we are given the choice we should go for the one which sounds best - whether that means the one we are less likely to split notes on (piccolo) or the one that is possibly more historically informed (D trumpet), this is our musical choice, but it must be a musical one. |
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Bstradivarius Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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I just tried G, D trumpet and piccolo trumpet for that part, and don't see how anybody can play it on D trumpet. I put the G trumpet away after the first lick. I tip my hat to anyone who is comfortable on D trumpet or G trumpet on that part. _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
Brass choir |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2536 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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It has been shared with me that the goal that Mr. Stravinsky was looking to achieve was a strident, brilliant tone that cuts through the orchestra. In the past, I have used my Kanstul piccolo trumpet in A. Were I playing it in the near future, I might consider my G1L-4, or that same piccolo. I would not use a larger, symphonic D trumpet with large bell that sounds very similar to the C trumpet, as that is NOT was Stravinsky intended for a tone with this work. The modern piccolo is perhaps a great choice, but like others, I'd maybe suggest Bb instead of A piccolo.
Just remember that brilliant, crystal-clear, sparkling tone that Stravinsky wanted to cut through the orchestra, and you'll be on the right track!
Good luck!
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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tptmed Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 450 Location: Boston
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Voisin told me he used piccolo, Eb, D and C on this piece.
I also like it on Bb piccolo as opposed to A. |
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CRoberts8 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 833 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen quite a few players do the opening solo on piccolo in Bb, and then pull the leadpipe to A (or change leadpipes). I have used my P5-4 on this part, and switch between a “big horn” mouthpiece and a more traditional orchestral piccolo trumpet mouthpiece depending on the color needed.
Having studied with Jim Thompson (mentioned in one of the posts from 2003 in this thread) I recall he talked about getting the sound of a small bell, French style D trumpet in your head when performing the piece. These D trumpets are very different than many of the big, orchestral C trumpet inspired D trumpets that are in use today. _________________ Charles Russell Roberts
Trumpet, Gaudete Brass Quintet
www.gaudetebrass.com |
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Danbassin Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 460 Location: Idyllwild, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I've played it on both piccolo (in A, throughout) and Eb. The Eb trumpet - NOT D, though there are many wonderful performances using D trumpet - sits great throughout essentially the whole piece, and bridges the gap between the upper brass and mid-woodwind far better than piccolo. Manny Laureano made this recommendation, so if you go this route, you'll be in pretty good company!
Happy practicing!
-DB _________________ Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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Bstradivarius Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:37 am Post subject: |
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tptmed wrote: | Voisin told me he used piccolo, Eb, D and C on this piece.
I also like it on Bb piccolo as opposed to A. |
Roger Voisin was a titan. _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
Brass choir |
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Bstradivarius Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: |
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CRoberts8 wrote: | I have seen quite a few players do the opening solo on piccolo in Bb, and then pull the leadpipe to A (or change leadpipes). I have used my P5-4 on this part, and switch between a “big horn” mouthpiece and a more traditional orchestral piccolo trumpet mouthpiece depending on the color needed.
Having studied with Jim Thompson (mentioned in one of the posts from 2003 in this thread) I recall he talked about getting the sound of a small bell, French style D trumpet in your head when performing the piece. These D trumpets are very different than many of the big, orchestral C trumpet inspired D trumpets that are in use today. |
I can see how Bb picc would benefit. You can avoid the C Sharps of A picc and having to pull out the third valve slide. Then when the crazy high stuff comes, back to A and in tune for those. Win win! Just played last night - reading rehearsal. Nutty piece. _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
Brass choir |
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chrisf3000 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2004 Posts: 347 Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Keep in mind that the D trumpets those guys used to play were a much smaller bore than modern D trumpets. I believe that the Yamaha 9636, for example, has the same bore size as a Bb trumpet. Playing on a much smaller bore like that probably helped them feel like they weren't "falling into the horn" by the end of the night.
As a side note, does anyone happen to have a transposed version of the D trumpet part? I am playing it next season, so to have one that someone's already played from would be a huge help. |
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Heim Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 181
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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fuzzyjon79 wrote: | If you use piccolo in A on that piece, you could read it like it is in bass clef, up 1 whole step... I think that's how most players would play it if they used a picc instead of a D trumpet....I did that with the Vivaldi Gloria one year.. but it's been so long ago, I can't remember the exact transposition. That would be my personal preference.
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I do that transposition as F trumpet while using a C (perfect 4th). |
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Heim Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 181
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Bstradivarius wrote: | I just tried G, D trumpet and piccolo trumpet for that part, and don't see how anybody can play it on D trumpet. I put the G trumpet away after the first lick. I tip my hat to anyone who is comfortable on D trumpet or G trumpet on that part. |
One needs to be in really good shape to do it on a D. |
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Bstradivarius Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Heim wrote: | Bstradivarius wrote: | I just tried G, D trumpet and piccolo trumpet for that part, and don't see how anybody can play it on D trumpet. I put the G trumpet away after the first lick. I tip my hat to anyone who is comfortable on D trumpet or G trumpet on that part. |
One needs to be in really good shape to do it on a D. |
You got me! 😊 _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
Brass choir |
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rein Regular Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 15 Location: Belgium
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:11 am Post subject: |
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In 2013, the Les Siecles orchestra performed Le Sacre at the BBC proms on period instruments. The whole concert with introduction is on youtube. Here is a clip where the D trumpet is visible:
https://youtu.be/rq1q6u3mLSM?t=12m44s _________________ Rein
Courtois 156R flugelhorn Bb
Courtois 153 flugelhorn Eb
Yamaha 6335-H cornet
Bach MLV78 Bb
Bach C239L |
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