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alanjk Regular Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2008 Posts: 47
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:01 pm Post subject: Clean attack |
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I record myself practicing to listen for issues. I am careful to take a full breath and not hold it before playing so as to avoid tension. Still, my attacks are often not very clean either tongued or not. Some of it is tension when starting out. But even as I am0 warmed up they are not what they should be. Some of this was helped when I swtiched to a GR mouthpiece but I know I can still do better.
Suggestions to correct for common issues in this area?
Exercises that may help?
Thanks
Alan |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I have the exact same issue and I am attempting to iron out. I noticed something very interesting that I believe is the cause:
I played a note on the piano then attempted to buzz it in my mouthpiece. I slid up to the note EVERY time. It took considerable thought and effort to hit the note without sliding. I will continue doing this exercise to hopefully overcome this issue... |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | http://www.johnfreemantrumpet.com/clean-attacks.html
That's worth a shot. |
Looks excellent, thanks for posting that - something I could spend a few days a week working on. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Intense concentration on the sound and pitch you want, before you even take your breath |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:56 am Post subject: |
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The tongue, in and by itself does not make a sound. It is rather the immediate vibration of the lip that produce the first attack, and the interruption of the wind by the tongue that causes the lip to stop for a split second and start again, that produces succeeding attacks.
Here's a Bill Knevitt exercise you may find useful.
Moisten your lips and press them together, not pinched. Take a big comfortable breath, chest up and blow using the "HEE" attack, striving to make the attack with no tongue as clear as you can. The air stream must be fast, like a bullet. Then when you add the tongue to this type blowing, you will have a clear attack that has a full sound at any dynamic level. _________________ Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2333 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:19 am Post subject: |
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I've had some student success with "HOO, POO, TOO" this helps build confidence in the timing of starting notes and getting consistently clean, well timed and executed attacks.
Which I've modified a little-- "HEE, PEE, PTEE (silent "P") (The tongue is higher, not laying on the bottom of your mouth) "HEE" Like a cat hiss..
first: start with an air attack - Hear the air moving first, slightly before you bring the lips into vibration. (repeat several times on mid-register notes)
second: coordinate that timing, air and vibration starting at the same time (repeat several times on mid-register notes) Clean air attacks.
lastly: without changing what's going on in step 2, add a touch/flick of the tip of the tongue at the same time (repeat several times on mid-register notes)
Then add exercises that focus on this aspect into your daily routine, over time if you're diligent you will build good habits and learn to control it. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: |
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1st Book of Practical Studies--getchell
Slur each line, then play with articulation.
Tah, Dah, Tu, doesn't matter. The sound is in the vowel. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Franquin sound production exercises. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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alanjk Regular Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2008 Posts: 47
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. I will try the suggestions.
Alan |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Everything isn't quite right when you try to make your attack. Too much lip tension, not enough lip tension, wrong balance/placement of tension, wrong balance of mouthpiece pressure, something not right about the teeth opening, amount of lip intrusion past the teeth, horn angle, mouth cavity, air stream - all of which are subtly different depending on the pitch and volume. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:54 am Post subject: |
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^^^ I like sound-based teaching because a list of possible problems like that can overwhelm the player and make it harder to simply fix the problem. Just play some notes and tongue like you are speaking, As Billy says, the sound is mainly what happens after the attack. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:26 am Post subject: |
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One can do endless exercises yet still keep doing the same counterproductive thing over and over.
Personally I only made strides regarding certain problems when I became more keenly aware of the nuts and bolts of what was going on. When it comes down to it, an attack is clean or not clean, you reach or don't reach a high note due to a physical difference in the execution of the mechanics of what you're doing. There's a reason why modern athletic coaches are keenly focused on the biomechanics of the athletes.
Some people seem to be able to make strides without much specific awareness, but I don't think that's universal. I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about past teachers who clearly lacked an awareness of these issues and weren't able to direct me to certain things I discovered on my own after a lot of frustration. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | One can do endless exercises yet still keep doing the same counterproductive thing over and over.
Personally I only made strides regarding certain problems when I became more keenly aware of the nuts and bolts of what was going on. When it comes down to it, an attack is clean or not clean, you reach or don't reach a high note due to a physical difference in the execution of the mechanics of what you're doing. There's a reason why modern athletic coaches are keenly focused on the biomechanics of the athletes.
Some people seem to be able to make strides without much specific awareness, but I don't think that's universal. I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about past teachers who clearly lacked an awareness of these issues and weren't able to direct me to certain things I discovered on my own after a lot of frustration. |
I think sound-based teaching has its uses as appropriate. My first encounter with it was when my high school private teacher wanted me to try to imitate the sound and style of a favorite Hummel recording. He recorded my playing just the exposition so I could hear it and I was shocked at the difference. I did not sound like the recording, but I sounded much better than I had previously. What I got from that was I needed a clear idea of what I wanted to play before I played it.
That said, I also think there are are times to work on nuts-and-bolts playing as exactly that. My college teacher wanted me to forget technique and focus on how I wanted something to sound, yet I didn't fully have the technical skill to be able to play what I was working up. In other words, "focus in the music and the technique will take care of itself." I relayed this to the Symphonic Band Director (also a professional brass player) and he commented that what my teacher was trying to do was an advanced approach and that in my case it would be better to work up the techniques separately with supplemental exercises then approach the piece as instructed, which ended up being a better approach for me.
In his defense, I get what my college teacher was trying to do, and that was to prevent me from practicing technique for its own sake forgetting about the music. I also know that his approach works for a lot of people.
One of the reasons I like the John Freeman exercise I posted is it forces you to focus on rhythm, be patient, breathe efficiently, and hear what you are going to play before you play it. Put all of these together and you will see improved articulation. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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One thing that can contribute to this is playing off the pitch center... "playing high on the pitch" being the more common manifestation of this.
Because playing high on the pitch involves tension to bring the note up to pitch, the embouchure isn't as supple as it could be and that can mean the sound doesn't ignite as quickly as it could do.
In this sense, the sound-based teaching might have some merits - if you're looking for a resonant sound then (eventually) you'll find you have to relax into the center of the pitch... and attacks should then improve a bit. |
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roynj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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I recommend the Caruso six notes. I believe that this exercise builds greater embouchure consistency and feel while promoting clean and efficient in-time attacks. If done properly, the six notes will require that you start attacks accurately and in time. Just try it for two weeks, and see what results you get. I'd bet you will be pleased. As with anything else, this exercise is just one tool to enable improvement in your playing, Sounding the note in your head before playing, and being ready and able to play a clean attack is half the battle. |
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jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 428 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:19 am Post subject: |
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All of the above information is very good. In addition, the Shuebruk lip trainer books talk about the "turn around", the change from inhaling to exhaling and give exercises to address this. Also, look up Rowuk's Circle of Breath on the TM site.
-John _________________ Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:34 am Post subject: |
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GR mouthpiece.
I'm not joking.
Probably like most of you, I have a shelf-full of all kinds of mouthpiece brands and sizes. I alternate way too frequently. However, whenever I play any of the GR mouthpieces I have on my shelf, I'm always amazed at how my accuracy and articulations improve. I get the most consistent, cleanest attack with my GR mouthpieces.
(If you haven't tried one, please don't dismiss this suggestion.) |
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PacoTheTrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2005 Posts: 278 Location: New York, New York, USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:14 am Post subject: |
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What I am going to suggest is less an exercise that I am recommending you do and more an experimental procedure that I recommend you fool around with. Take the last pitch you failed to cleanly attack, and breath attack it while fluttertonguing. Find the most resonant sound you possibly can achieve while doing this, and see if you can replicate it at a soft dynamic. Be patient with yourself. When you have found an easy and clear sounding beginning to the tone (listening through the fluttertongue), then gently rearticulate it with a single tongue. If the sound is still clear and resonant, increase the weight and/or pointedness of the articulation. Expand this procedure to lower and higher pitch levels. If at any point you find yourself forcing, or notice the quality of the sound becoming less than clear, return to the fluttertongued breath attack. While doing this, you need to set aside any preconceptions you have about what you think is "true" about playing the trumpet. Forget about breathing (aside from continuing to do it), don't concern yourself with where there is and isn't "tension," and put all of your attention on the task itself and the sound you are looking for. If you are someone who is physically unable to fluttertongue, I have an alternative suggestion, but hopefully this will be of some use to you. |
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Jabroni Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2015 Posts: 146
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:03 am Post subject: BEST POST OF THE YEAR |
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PACO______ BEST POST OF THE YEAR, THANK YOU |
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