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Tonguing Speed



 
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ComeBackTumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:17 am    Post subject: Tonguing Speed Reply with quote

I am a comeback player. At my last lesson, my instructor timed me tonguing using sixteenth notes with a quarter note to a beat at a metronome speed of 126. When I single tongue a Clark Study (#2), I struggle at a metronome speed of 100. Is this normal?
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, once you get the study under your fingers it should get closer to 126.
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Pete
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It takes a while. I do #2 almost everyday. I just tried it single tongued at 126 and I can get it. That being said, as CJceltics33 just said, once you get it under your fingers it will be a bit easier.

I wouldn't get too fixed on single tonguing too much. As a matter of fact, I just got done doing the following before I read this post: I do this Study slurred once, double tongued once, single tongued once and than K tongue once all in on breath trying to keep the air flow as even as possible, using as much of a legato articulation on the double and single tonguing as I can. I do not play it this way at 126 because it is way too fast for the K tongue,but I try to do it all at the same speed.

Working on coordination gets your speed so start slower and work up to the tempo that you are shooting for.

Pete
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ComeBackTumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete wrote:
It takes a while. I do #2 almost everyday. I just tried it single tongued at 126 and I can get it. That being said, as CJceltics33 just said, once you get it under your fingers it will be a bit easier.

I wouldn't get too fixed on single tonguing too much. As a matter of fact, I just got done doing the following before I read this post: I do this Study slurred once, double tongued once, single tongued once and than K tongue once all in on breath trying to keep the air flow as even as possible, using as much of a legato articulation on the double and single tonguing as I can. I do not play it this way at 126 because it is way too fast for the K tongue,but I try to do it all at the same speed.

Working on coordination gets your speed so start slower and work up to the tempo that you are shooting for.

Pete


Interesting, my instructor just started me on K tonguing.

Thanks
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Tonguing Speed Reply with quote

ComeBackTumpet wrote:
I am a comeback player. At my last lesson, my instructor timed me tonguing using sixteenth notes with a quarter note to a beat at a metronome speed of 126. When I single tongue a Clark Study (#2), I struggle at a metronome speed of 100. Is this normal?


Its normal. Single tongue speed can be developed. It tends to be a practice dependent capability. That and natural ability plays a big part. The fastest single tongue articulation I ever heard was a trombonist who could accurately blow sixteenth notes at 176mm. Which is out of this world. Howwver the trombone offers less resistance than the trumpet. I doubt if he coukd have pulled that off on a trumpet.

I kind of question the emphasis that teachers place upon single tongue speed. I personally would rather spend my practice time doing articulated scales at a pace within my control. And if I needed to play faster? Switch over to double or triple tongue.

The irony of classical trumpet training is that when I went through it as a college music major I had to basically throw out everything that I learned once I started playing professionally. As pro playing usually doesn't care if you play single or double tongue. In fact in modern music you rarely even see fast articulation. This was a skill more associated with the late 19th and early 20th century times. The era of Herbeet L Clarke.

My road travelling experience never called for rapid articulation. I could do it but it wasn't necessary. What was important was,
Accuracy,
Intonation,
Loud playing,
Endurance, and
Range.

Articulation just wasn't part of the picture.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

???? to the post above, I suspect (hope) you don't mean what you actually wrote.

Articulation is a critical skill. Period.

To say you didn't articulate while on the road? Thinking of the ensembles I play in, or work with as an educator, there is nothing with does not require articulation, and often a degree of facility - speed.

As a teacher, we are constantly on the kids about articulation, and especially those who cheat, by huffing, or have faulty technique, like the reverse tongue (cutting off notes as their primary articulation).

If one wants to increase the speed of their single tongue, GOOD. Go for it, and reap the benefits in greater ease of playing.

cheers

Andy
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Tonguing Speed Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
ComeBackTumpet wrote:
I am a comeback player. At my last lesson, my instructor timed me tonguing using sixteenth notes with a quarter note to a beat at a metronome speed of 126. When I single tongue a Clark Study (#2), I struggle at a metronome speed of 100. Is this normal?


Its normal. Single tongue speed can be developed. It tends to be a practice dependent capability. That and natural ability plays a big part...

I kind of question the emphasis that teachers place upon single tongue speed. I personally would rather spend my practice time doing articulated scales at a pace within my control. And if I needed to play faster? Switch over to double or triple tongue.

The irony of classical trumpet training is that when I went through it as a college music major I had to basically throw out everything that I learned once I started playing professionally. As pro playing usually doesn't care if you play single or double tongue. In fact in modern music you rarely even see fast articulation. This was a skill more associated with the late 19th and early 20th century times. The era of Herbeet L Clarke.

My road travelling experience never called for rapid articulation. I could do it but it wasn't necessary. What was important was,
Accuracy,
Intonation,
Loud playing,
Endurance, and
Range.

Articulation just wasn't part of the picture.


No doubt you're broadly right, but there is the odd pop tune where fast single or double tonguing comes in handy - a bunch of the licks in September by Earth Wind and Fire are challenging to spit out cleanly, for instance. A fast tongue wouldn't hurt for Uptown Funk, either.

I think the big argument for working on articulation (and the most appropriate area of focus) isn't so much working on the pure speed of tongue motion, but for cultivating embouchure and articulation efficiency which help with everything, not just speed. Also, you never know - you might get called to play Scheherazade.

-=-

For the OP - yes, it's common to have a gap between how fast you can tongue in an absolute sense, and how fast you can tongue in moving passages. It probably shows that something's out of sync, assuming that you can slur the moving passage, of course. (Either sloppy finger timing, or poor coordination of fingers and tongue, or otherwise tensing up somehow in a way that inhibits playing your best.)
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Tonguing Speed Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
For the OP - yes, it's common to have a gap between how fast you can tongue in an absolute sense, and how fast you can tongue in moving passages. It probably shows that something's out of sync, assuming that you can slur the moving passage, of course. (Either sloppy finger timing, or poor coordination of fingers and tongue, or otherwise tensing up somehow in a way that inhibits playing your best.)

I started making headway on multiple tongued moving lines when my teacher assigned all the Clarke Technical Studies with a rotation of tonguing models. That gets you multiple tonguing chromatics, scales, and arpeggios.

Tonguing models
- Tongue all
- Slur all
- Slur two/tongue two
- K-tongue all
- Double tongue all
- Triple tongue all (where it makes sense)

Some of these are hideous when you start but it's dues that needs to be paid.
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My tonguing speed was trial by fire. In Junior High and High School, I struggled with all the various techniques to develop a consistent double-tonguing. Then in high school summer band camp, we had a Claude Smith composition (sorry - I can't remember the name - please help me) that had triplet 16th notes at the beginning, and I just had to figure out how to play it right then, right there. So ironically, I learned how to triple-tongue before I developed a consistent double-tongue!
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roynj
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Tonguing Speed Reply with quote

ComeBackTumpet wrote:
I am a comeback player. At my last lesson, my instructor timed me tonguing using sixteenth notes with a quarter note to a beat at a metronome speed of 126. When I single tongue a Clark Study (#2), I struggle at a metronome speed of 100. Is this normal?


This is a decent speed, but to go faster you have to develop a very light single tongue. Too heavy of tonguing results in much more difficulty in attaining speed. In practical terms, if you are struggling with 4 notes to 100bpm, then you're almost there. As others have said, the speed of your single tonguing in most playing you will do will not require 126. ( I am referring to 4 tongued notes per beat of course).

Clarke 2 is part of my daily routine, and I think that 120 is a pretty decent fast speed if tongued 4 notes to the beat. In fact, it's a bit too fast. I'd rather hear clean notes at 100, and super accurate fingering of the exercises, especially the tricky keys like B major. For me the point of the exercise is accurate finger dexterity combined with accurate note articulation. I can usually tell in about one minute of listening to a player if he/she practices Clarke or not.

As a comeback player, you might consider just making sure that your fingers are banging down on the correct notes. Practice the "hard" key signatures ten times more than the easy ones.
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Philippe S.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,
What about this amazing quote:
‘Speed will come unbidden after accuracy’ .......does apply to every aspect of playing.
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