The Committee is back in session?

[Speed]

Based on what I can see in the pictures of the logo, it appears that the current Mr. Martin chose a new style of "Martin" rather than the traditional script. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I always liked the traditional "Martin" script. If I were going to try to capitalize on the history of the Committee, I think I would have used the traditional script so the new instrument would look as much like its ancestor as possible.

Take care,
Marc Speed

[Louise Finch]

Hi

Maybe I'm being pedantic, but the following sentence from the Martin Committee Model Trumpet section of the quoted link, stands out to me:

The legendary dark warm tone of the Martin Committee Model Trumpet has been revived by the family that started The Martin Band Instrument Company

I'm presuming maybe wrongly that the Kanstul 1603 came first, and Richard Martin has recently established the Martin Brasswind Co. (I can't see a date at the bottom of his website, but presume that this has happened fairly recently, as I would have imagined if not, that it would have been posted on here before).

Again maybe I am being pedantic, but saying that the trumpet has been revived by the family that started the Martin Band Instrument Company, although not specifically stated, kind of suggests that Richard Martin has played some part in Kanstul creating the 1603, when in reality, I think that Kanstul created the 1603 some time back, and Richard Martin has subsequently decided to put the Martin name to it.

When he says that he has selected Kanstul Musical Instruments to be the manufacturer for the Martin Brasswind Co., although again not specifically stated, it suggests that Kanstul are making this trumpet especially for Richard Martin rather than re-badging their own 1603.

Maybe I am wrong, and this is not simply a re-badged 1603, but has some differences.

Probably I'm taking the website too literally anyway, and I honestly don't think that Richard Martin is doing anything wrong if this is a re-badged 1603. I suppose I just feel that the website may be giving a version of the truth.

It doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[onlyson]

Saw Wallace Roney at The Jazz Showcase in Chicago last night. Got a chance to briefly talk with him and asked him how the Kanstul was treating him. He said the horn was a Martin. I said "You brought the Martin out?" meaning like one of the ones he got from Miles (I was surprised because it definitely looked like the Kanstul) He said no. So I asked "Is Kanstul making the new Martins?" and he nodded in the affirmative.
_________________
Del Quadro Grizzly
Yamaha 9335CH
1951 Martin Committee Deluxe #3 Bore
ACB Coppernicus
Couesnon Flugel
Carol Pocket Trumpet

[dershem]

[chuck in ny]

is the 1603 identical in its basic construction to the martin?

[Brent]

Here's Wallace Roney with the Kanstul Committee:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzXuuPKOZIA
_________________
Brent

[JetJaguar]

[Hnelldor]

[shofarguy]

[OldSchoolEuph]

So here is the problem with this – nothing adds up.

First, the 1603 is a close copy of the second generation Committee released after World War 2. The valve ports appear to be slightly different in alignment, the rear bell brace is offset a smidge, and one would have to take a lot of measurements to know about the bore for sure, but its basically a decent clone. Question is, is the Martin a good close of the real Martin?

Then there is the history: The Martin businesses were started by GR Martin in 1851 in New York, his brother JH did not join him until he finished his apprenticeship in Dresden in 1854. The present Mr. Martin seems to think JH Martin started the company in Chicago . . . . He also repeats the myth about the family walking to Elkhart (problem being that the oldest child Henry Martin was still too young to make such a walk) – maybe that’s why they didn’t get there till Conn was in business in 1876 (the fire was 1871)? – The family actually returned to New York and the Martin manufacturing facility at 31 Courtlandt (Chicago was likely a distribution operation, not manufacturing) where JH superintended until replaced by Henry Distin for 2 years in 1876, which allowed him to spend those 2 years with Conn in Elkhart. That false story on the new Martin history page was created by the Martin company advertising machine around 1940 – after there were no Martins in the business. How is it that a Martin doesn’t know his own family history?

As noted, there were no Martins in the company in 1940, and in fact, the last, his great grandfather, left the company in 1922. So what relationship is there between the family and a horn designed, probably by Schilke alone, in the 1930s? Or, given that we are talking about the second generation, 1945?

The Martin family was originally known for building rather flimsy Saxon rotaries from 1851-1885 when they went under and the original brothers both went to work in Detroit for a year as assemblers before JH was welcomed back to Conn, ultimately bringing his kids with him. One may presume that, after JH learned about piston valve design from Conn, and the partner they brought in to offset the financial disaster of Chicago, August Pollman, left to sell piston valve horns under his own name in 1878, that it was pure stubbornness on the part of GR Martin that kept them building obsolete and undesirable horns until they failed. JH’s kids were not any better, with operations so dysfunctional that by 1912, they had to sell their 8 year old company to their 27 year old bookkeeper, who brought in William Gronert to run it and kicked out the Martins – except for Henry as a figurehead President. When Bassett bought the company in 1920, he soon tired of Henry Martin and removed him in 1922. The great Martin Band Instrument Company products had nothing to do with any Martins - not the best actual history to promote a $4K horn with.

As for using the company name, the new Martin does not. Martin Brasswind Company is a unique business name, so he should have no trouble from Conn-Selmer. (Add that to GR Martin, Martin and Slater, Slater and Martin, Martin & Co., Martin Pollman & Co., Martin Brothers, JH Martin Band Instrument Co., and Martin Band Instrument Co. - wow, they go out of business a lot!) As for the Martin Committee, as noted that trademark has lapsed. Anyone can use it now.

So now, here is this new horn, built by Kanstul, and with the forward bell brace now shifted among the minor cosmetic differences noticeable, selling in competition with the Kanstul. Is Kanstul going to undercut their own product by selling these to Martin at a price he can make a profit on unless the horn is cheapened in some way? Seems unlikely.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[Speed]

Other than one having "Kanstul" engraved on it and the other one having "Martin" engraved on it, there are no obvious differences between the two instruments. Perhaps there are some players who will opt for the "Martin" simply because it says "Martin" on it. That's got to be what Richard Martin is banking on.

[shofarguy]

OldSchoolEuph,

It's not really hard to understand. In my family (the one I grew up with, not my descendants), there is only one person who goes to the kind of detail you're talking about here when it comes to our family history. Then, there is my brother who has been around longest and remembers the most. At least for now. As he gets older, there is always the chance he won't remember as much, or that his memories will begin to get jumbled up, as was the case with my mother, who suffered from Alzheimers disease. This person obviously isn't either of these types in his family.

I imagine that he captured some of the romance of the Martin Committee and some of the mystique of his family name and got the idea to "someday reintroduce the Martin brand." That doesn't make him a scholar. It means he's a romantic, of sorts.

I read through his website and to me it's obvious that this isn't a well funded or thought out venture. The text is full of misspellings and poor sentence structure, etc. Does that make him a shyster? Not in this day and age. It means he's probably used to life with Auto Correct and he, like many of his peers, just doesn't care that much about grammatical or factual accuracy. My guess is he used a pre-fab template design offered by some software company at an affordable price.

What I do know is that everyone in this industry is trying to find a way to sell trumpets. It's tough. So, Kanstul is doing him a favor. He's taking a bit of a risk and making an effort. I think that's good.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[CurtisCalderon]

[Brad361]

[Brad361]

[CurtisCalderon]

[shofarguy]

[kehaulani]

This "dark and smoky" thing . . to the best of my knowledge, Dizzy, Chet, Lee Morgan, Maynard, one of Woody Herman's Bebop Herd's entire trumpet sections et al , don't exactly sound dark to me.

Maybe it has more darkish potential than some other trumpets . . I certainly wouldn't use mine in a semi to pro orchestra section . . but naturally "dark and smoky"? I don't think so.

FWIW, my repair tech loved mine and said "it's not only a fine combo horn but a great lead one, too".
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Existentialist]

I'm just really glad to see these horns on the market, whether it's the Schilke HC, Adams A9, Kanstul 1603 1603+, or the "new" Martin. I'm hoping to buy one of these brands some day, and I enjoy reading all the related posts.
_________________
Adams A9 (medium bore)
Yamaha 8310Z Gen. II
Taylor Chicago Standard II
Inderbinen Wood Flugelhorn
https://crciorba.com/

[Brad361]