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Yoshinori76 Regular Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 58
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: Overblowing? |
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So I own a Bach Mount Vernon Strad. Apparently made before the bell sizes were etched into the bell. It's a medium large bore. I'm using it primarily for lead playing. I have a really decent sound and have an everyday high g. I've been at this "break" between g and anything higher, having been able to play a double a a few times and a double c a few times. However last night after big band rehearsal my friend let me play his large bore reverse lead Xeno. To test it, I did octave slurs on c e g and c to double c. I overshot double C which I've never been able to do.
Is it because I'm overblowing a medium large bore? Any insight would be well appreciated. _________________ Bach 37
Bach 3C
Yamaha Shew Lead |
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scottfsmith Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 Posts: 474 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Nobody is answering this so I'll give it a shot..
Hitting a good DHC was not a design goal when your trumpet was built. All orchestral instruments have had their designed ranges extended over the years, and the older ones may or may not do well way up there. So I would more blame it on the particular instrument you have, not the bore size. Go to the local store and try out a bunch and you will know for sure. _________________ Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces |
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Yoshinori76 Regular Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 58
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for replying. My next question is, if I can hit it, can I develop it into a solid note or will my better option be to switch to something like an LA Yamaha? I cannot feasibly afford a new horn as I recently purchased this one. And I did test many horns before deciding. I was at that store for 3 hours I think. It just worked with me almost intuitively. _________________ Bach 37
Bach 3C
Yamaha Shew Lead |
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area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: |
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scottfsmith wrote: | Nobody is answering this so I'll give it a shot..
Hitting a good DHC was not a design goal when your trumpet was built. All orchestral instruments have had their designed ranges extended over the years, and the older ones may or may not do well way up there. So I would more blame it on the particular instrument you have, not the bore size. Go to the local store and try out a bunch and you will know for sure. |
So about when did the design imperative change? And how were the guys hitting atmospheric notes do it back in the day? Not being flip here, I'm unaware of this viewpoint and am curious..... |
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Chaser Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 441
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Depending you the player and mouthpiece, some guys find smaller (or ML) bore horns easier to play in the upper register on and some guys find the same with larger bore horns. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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If it could be arranged I'd be curious to know how you'd do with the Xeno for a week or two. Your high note success may be a honeymoon effect that doesn't last. Maybe the high note success will be compromised with endurance or intonation problems. No way to know until you try.
Should you decide to go Yamaha, your Strad should have significant resale value. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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MF Fan Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 Posts: 397 Location: The Great White North
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Guys like Al Killian, Cat Anderson, Maynard, Bud Brisbois, etc. managed to make equipment from the 40’s and 50’s work just fine. _________________ MF Fan
__________
L.A. Benge 5x
Holton MF3
Lead Trumpet - My Basement Jazz Orchestra |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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MF Fan wrote: | Guys like Al Killian, Cat Anderson, Maynard, Bud Brisbois, etc. managed to make equipment from the 40’s and 50’s work just fine. |
Too bad the OP isn't one of those guys. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Yoshinori76 Regular Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 Posts: 58
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | MF Fan wrote: | Guys like Al Killian, Cat Anderson, Maynard, Bud Brisbois, etc. managed to make equipment from the 40’s and 50’s work just fine. |
Too bad the OP isn't one of those guys. |
You're telling me. I'm still quite happy with my abilities. I just would love a solid dhc because that would probably mean a double A. Maybe some Caruso would help. And some Colin lip flexibility studies. All at pianissimo. _________________ Bach 37
Bach 3C
Yamaha Shew Lead |
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area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | MF Fan wrote: | Guys like Al Killian, Cat Anderson, Maynard, Bud Brisbois, etc. managed to make equipment from the 40’s and 50’s work just fine. |
Too bad the OP isn't one of those guys. |
This addresses my post as well though....that high notes are not baked into more modern gear any more than horns from that bygone era.... |
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scottfsmith Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2015 Posts: 474 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:26 am Post subject: |
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area51recording wrote: |
This addresses my post as well though....that high notes are not baked into more modern gear any more than horns from that bygone era.... |
At some point the ability to hit high notes well was made an important design element, the horns were thoroughly play-tested up there, etc. When this happened on different makes I don't know, but Bach being a primarily classical trumpet may not have been doing any DHCs in their play testing in the 50's. Any trumpet can play high notes, its about how easily/reliably. _________________ Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces |
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area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:16 am Post subject: |
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scottfsmith wrote: | area51recording wrote: |
This addresses my post as well though....that high notes are not baked into more modern gear any more than horns from that bygone era.... |
At some point the ability to hit high notes well was made an important design element, the horns were thoroughly play-tested up there, etc. When this happened on different makes I don't know, but Bach being a primarily classical trumpet may not have been doing any DHCs in their play testing in the 50's. Any trumpet can play high notes, its about how easily/reliably. |
So what are the physical changes to the design that would facilitate this, I wonder? |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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area51recording wrote: | So what are the physical changes to the design that would facilitate this, I wonder? |
Mainly the bell flare, though with small wave lengths more and more of the horn gets into the picture.
I find it much easier to play high on my Wild Thing than on my old Bach 37. OTOH a lot of players seem to have no problem screaming on a 37. Lots of variables.
And on the high A; I find it much easier to play a DHC than slot the ^%$! A on most any horn I own, though I am a hair more likely on my WT whereas I swear that note doesn't even exist on my Bach. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Yoshinori76 wrote: | Tpt_Guy wrote: | MF Fan wrote: | Guys like Al Killian, Cat Anderson, Maynard, Bud Brisbois, etc. managed to make equipment from the 40’s and 50’s work just fine. |
Too bad the OP isn't one of those guys. |
You're telling me. I'm still quite happy with my abilities. I just would love a solid dhc because that would probably mean a double A. Maybe some Caruso would help. And some Colin lip flexibility studies. All at pianissimo. |
If you are in a big hurry and already have a no strain hi g, do a skype lesson with Jim Manley. Best hi note guy Ive heard, and doesn’t believe in blowing the top of your head off to do it (highly recommended alternative to some methods).
Rod |
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