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Ximo_molina Regular Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2018 Posts: 68 Location: Spain
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:59 am Post subject: Bad intonation in my new top |
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Hi, this is my first contribution in TH.
I'm playing on a broadway shows in Spain for years. I use two Warburton tops. 4MD for lyrical and classic moments and 4M for a brighter, more commercial sound. After several tests, I really liked the support W (wide rim).
Terry has created a 4MW top for me, but the results are not good. the intonation is very high (minimum a quarter of a tone, compared to my standard 4M). Can someone explain why? the support on the lips is simply wonderful and comfortable, but the intonation is terrible.
I can not find an explanation.
Thank you! _________________ Yamaha 8335LA Gen2
Bach Bb43 ML Malone leadpipe
Carol brass Hero Bb
Carol Brass Toreador Bb
Bach C 239 Malone leadpipe
Yamaha631 flugel
Yamaha Xeno Cornet
Stomvi Titán piccolo
Stomvi élite Eb
GR mouthpieces |
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Bad intonation in my new top |
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Ximo_molina wrote: | Hi, this is my first contribution in TH.
I'm playing on a broadway shows in Spain for years. I use two Warburton tops. 4MD for lyrical and classic moments and 4M for a brighter, more commercial sound. After several tests, I really liked the support W (wide rim).
Terry has created a 4MW top for me, but the results are not good. the intonation is very high (minimum a quarter of a tone, compared to my standard 4M). Can someone explain why? the support on the lips is simply wonderful and comfortable, but the intonation is terrible.
I can not find an explanation.
Thank you! |
Hi!
Cool equipment list!
I don't know if I can offer an explanation for the sharpness, the wider rim will change the surface of your lip which is vibrating and so, without you changing anything in the way you play, it may simply play sharper than the other ones (in which case you just have to remember to pull out a bit more when you use the 4MW)? There are many other possibilities but you are evidently a well established and experienced player and you will be a much better judge than I can without ever hearing you!
My question would be; was there ever a problem with your previous equipment and were you looking for something particular to be improved by the change? If not then I personally would forget about the 4MW and just return to the equipment that worked.
If you are dead set on using this 4MW and can't rectify the intonation issues with some practice, you could always try a different backbore?
Hope that can be of some use!
All the best |
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Ximo_molina Regular Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2018 Posts: 68 Location: Spain
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: |
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LSOfanboy Thank you very much for your comment.
basically I have changed to wide rim for comfort. I tried at an exhibition in Spain years ago with Terry. He told me that a W could be useful for me (my lips are big and meaty) then I tried the top 3MDW of a good friend. the result was splendid in terms of support and comfort. On my friend's top I did not see any intonation problem, maybe it was a deeper cup. it is difficult for me to return to a standard top after having tried the wide rim, but I think it does not make up for stretching the tuning slide almost 2cm (with the standard it was not out nor 1cm) _________________ Yamaha 8335LA Gen2
Bach Bb43 ML Malone leadpipe
Carol brass Hero Bb
Carol Brass Toreador Bb
Bach C 239 Malone leadpipe
Yamaha631 flugel
Yamaha Xeno Cornet
Stomvi Titán piccolo
Stomvi élite Eb
GR mouthpieces |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes wide rims have a way of thinning out the tone (depending on the player). If this is occurring with you, you may be manipulating your embouchure to compensate, and that could be introducing other problems (additional tension leading to pitch issues).
If this is the source of the problem, you might be able to investigate a solution with a rim which has a different inner angle (going into the cup). Some manufacturers have a variety to experiment with (GR would be an example). _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe it needs more time on your lips. Or maybe you can pull the tuning slide out more. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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Matthew Anklan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1085 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Ask Terry. He’s smart. _________________ Matthew Anklan
www.matthewanklan.com
Patrick Mouthpieces Artist |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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jetjaguar wrote: | Maybe it needs more time on your lips. Or maybe you can pull the tuning slide out more. |
Or push it back in and relax... |
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TMT Regular Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2005 Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Have you examined the top/backbore juncture compared with your older one? Even minute differences from an imperfect match can change the way one top plays vs another... |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1532 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:34 pm Post subject: New top |
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Hello all. I play the 5mv. You did not tell us the back bore. For me, if the back bore is too open, I tend to go Sharp in the upper register. I play a KT* and have had pretty good luck. It equates to a 4 or 5 in the Warburton system. If you are playing a 7 or bigger, that may be the problem. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Ximo_molina Regular Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2018 Posts: 68 Location: Spain
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:54 am Post subject: |
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I play with a backbore 6 and sometimes with an H (equivalent to a 4). they're tight backbores, I do not think that's the problem ... _________________ Yamaha 8335LA Gen2
Bach Bb43 ML Malone leadpipe
Carol brass Hero Bb
Carol Brass Toreador Bb
Bach C 239 Malone leadpipe
Yamaha631 flugel
Yamaha Xeno Cornet
Stomvi Titán piccolo
Stomvi élite Eb
GR mouthpieces |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Seems unusual doesn't it? It must be one of two possibilities - a result of how your embouchure is functioning on the new wider rim or something to do with the top/bb. My experience with a wider rim is it will restrict lip movement somewhat and cause less lip intrusion into the cup and the fact the the top is new silver plate can make it more grippy increasing this effect. But I don't see how that would change the pitch. Probably worth contacting Terry to gain his thoughts. Other than that, is it a problem if your slide is further out? _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL |
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Ximo_molina Regular Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2018 Posts: 68 Location: Spain
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:14 am Post subject: |
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the problem of the slide more out, is more than a centimeter of difference. this can decompose the instrument with respect to fixed slides. it's like something unnatural about the instrument _________________ Yamaha 8335LA Gen2
Bach Bb43 ML Malone leadpipe
Carol brass Hero Bb
Carol Brass Toreador Bb
Bach C 239 Malone leadpipe
Yamaha631 flugel
Yamaha Xeno Cornet
Stomvi Titán piccolo
Stomvi élite Eb
GR mouthpieces |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Matthew Anklan wrote: | Ask Terry. He’s smart. |
exactly
buena suerte |
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Any time you gain in one thing, you give something up somewhere else. EVERYTHING we do is a series of compromises.
The best sound I have ever gotten is on a Bach 5A. Pure, clear, great easy intonation, but I'd better be playing for no more than 45 minutes, because it just kills my chops.
Best range I've ever had was on a Warburton 6M, once again, good intonation, but tended to get really bright and it better not go over 2 hours of playing. As I got tired, would start chipping notes, and the spleeyah fairy would park on the stand.
The mouthpiece I play all the time now is a Stork 10 Studio Master, killer tone for commercial, and can get through a 4 hour gig with horsepower to spare.
The intonation gets iffy in the upper register, and once again, if I don't keep total focus, will chip notes. As long as the brain is working, no problem, but if I start thinking about something else and don't really dial in intonation, will get squirrelly.
Decide what you can live with, and just take the rest to the woodshed. _________________ Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth |
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