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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:22 am Post subject: |
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I can change a student's sound in a lesson setting without saying a word. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:52 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: |
Just because you have a "sound concept" doesn't mean you are equipped to ever produce that sound. I've yet to hear a trumpet player that is a chameleon, who can imitate a variety of sounds on demand, who can freely and easily switch between sounding like like Phil Smith, Maynard, Clark Terry, Chet Baker, Wynton, etc. |
Maybe that last thing is a little bit too much but I always thought that really great players can change their sound considerabely if necessary without changing hardware. And it's for me too easy to say that they still keep their own sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VdYmj8n4TE |
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ComeBackTumpet Regular Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 22
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I like the comments regarding find your own sound.
Herb Alpert couldn't play very high nor did he seem to have great technical skills. Boy did he have the "sound". |
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Hnelldor Regular Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2017 Posts: 20 Location: California
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | I can change a student's sound in a lesson setting without saying a word. |
Not sure that was meant tongue-in-cheek, but I laughed when I read that
The “sound concept in your head” platitude is paramount... you need that idea of generally what you want to sound like. For me, the next step was experimenting to see how I could get that sound, regardless of equipment. Certain equipment can make the job easier to get that sound, but really it comes down to the player
One of my most difficult realizations is that there aren’t really any short cuts. It takes hard work and time to figure things out, and it can be frustrating. How to play more aggressively, or less aggressively, playing with more “bounce” to the sound, playing with less...it all takes time and a different approach to playing on the instrument.
Not sure if this is helpful or not but I hope it is
Best regards
Nick _________________ 1937 Martin Handcraft Imperial
Getzen Eterna 900
Reynolds Emperor Flugelhorn |
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Blackquill Regular Member
Joined: 03 May 2018 Posts: 74 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not an expert by any means, but I think the most benecial aspect of trying to imitate players is that it may help you improve your sound in ways that other methods to improve sound probably won't accomplish. As for me, I would listen to some solo that I liked and would imitate, and the resonance in my tone actually improved significantly over a period of several months. So that trick helped me significantly at one point in time. It could be harmful if taking out of context or taking it to an extreme, though. Still, I see nothing wrong with imitating many different players from time to time for practice sake. _________________ Trumpet is for extroverts only... no, wait... Trumpet is also for introverts who need an avenue for extrovertism! |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5681 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | You'll have to start with buying a Monette Raja P3 STC. |
IMO Wynton always sounded better on his more conventional horns and mouthpieces. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: How to Strive for a Sound |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | My sound has become a lot more open, but now I desire it to have resonance, smoothness and character. I feel like my sound is kinda dead.
How can I get a more resonant sound?
They say there should be a certain sound in your head that you strive for, and I’d love to sound like Wynton. He has by far my favorite sound.
Beyond just listening to him, how can I sound more like Mr. Marsalis? |
Note, Marsallis is a very forward jaw trumpet. Reinhardt called his kind Type IVA. Although I don't like the terminology
I just like to say "forward jaw" trumpet player. Trumpets like Marsallis have a natural brilliance to the tone. If you get a chance? Listen to Stan Mark. Stan is the best example of a foward jaw trumpet whose sound has lots of brilliance. Listen to him play solo on "The Way We Were". A live recording at the Maynard tribute. Someone, I think it wss Allen Vizzutti who once said that,
"Stan Mark has a tone that cuts like a band saw through sheet metal"! Lol. And Stan really did cut through. This is probably the reason why Maynard kept him on the lead chair for ten years. By Stan's own admission "there were always better high note players in the trumpet section". However Stan could naturally bring that lead part out well. Conversely? His performance on "TWWWere" displays almost a bit too much edge. It's still very musical but I wanted to hear something a little less edgy.
But as for your playing with more brilliance? Playing from the heart helps. But on the physical level? I like to promote the idea of using a shallower cup but with a more open throat/back-bore combination.
My guess is that you are probably more of a receded jaw trumpet. Simply because most of us are. As a receded jaw trumpet you and others like yourself tend to utilize a larger portion of the mouthpiece cup when you blow. Conversely the forward jaw trumpet player uses less of the "real estate" within the m/piece. At least on one level this is obvious. As the forward jaw trumpet uses less upper lip than lower. And since the upper lip is the one which allows the airstream to vibrate? Using less upper lip will make the mouthpiece behave more like a shallower piece as compared to what the receded jaw cat uses. This probably isnt the only reason for the forward jaw trumpet's added brilliance but its probably a large part of it.
So if you want more brilliance? Try shallower cups or narrower throats. Contacr me via p/m for more details. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | I can change a student's sound in a lesson setting without saying a word. |
You can change a student's sound but the student will still sound like himself/herself and there's a limit to how much variation in "himself/herself" will be available to him/her. We are all limited by our physiology.
The point of the Miles Davis quote is that we are better off to strive for our own best sound and be happy with that sound than to try to imitate a sound we are never going to be able to produce. There's nothing wrong with trying to produce a certain sound, and some players ultimately produce their "ideal" sound, but at the end of the day whatever sound we produce is still going to be "our" sound.
There are a lot of variations in physiology just as there are a lot of variations in reeds for woodwinds. You can't do everything with one physiology any more than a woodwind player can do everything with one reed. Knowing your natural characteristics and knowing your limitations can help you refine your natural sound and avoid a lot of frustration.
Sound quality is a very subjective topic. There are a lot of beautiful sounds. Each player should strive to produce their own most beautiful sound. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Have you tried experimenting with different vowel sounds to change the shape of your oral cavity? Ooor, Eeee, Aaaah etc. Pretty sure I am doing this without thinking when change my tone for different styles. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL |
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
To pick up on points by Lionel and Hermokiwi above.
Lionel; your comments are very interesting and the Reinhardt link is cool. It depends on your definition, but I would probably disagree that Marsalis has a particularly 'brilliant' tone (ie. a sound with a lot of brilliance), at least not in the manner that you describe with the link to Stan Mark. To me, Wynton has a broad sound, with significant diffusion and therefore with a soft edge. It is more pronounced now, on his Monette equipment, but even if you listen to Carnaval on cornet, or either of the Haydn/Hummel concerto recordings or the Tomasi/Jolivet album, there is a slight 'air' around the core of his sound and articulation. The opposite of this would be a player like Chris Martin, or actually Wayne Bergeron, who both have totally pure/efficient/resonant sounds. Its not to say that Wynton doesn't have a great sound, he absolutely does, but I don't think it is right comparing it to an 'edgy lead player', and you certainly won't get closer to Wynton's sound by using a shallower or tighter mouthpiece.
To Hermokiwi: as I have said before, I think the real answer lies somewhere between the two of us, but I disagree that a player will always sound like him/herself, especially because of physiology. I know that I can produce a whole spectrum of sounds; perhaps not control it to the extent of being able to perfectly imitate my colleagues, but there is certainly a massive variation in the sound I can produce and am not limited by 'my personal sound'. Through slight adjustments in my physical set up (firstly, the amount of air I allow into my cheeks, and secondly, a slight change in the tautness of my upper lip) and the use of the 4 trumpet mouthpieces I carry with me daily I am able to dictate, to a large extent, the focus (from clear/direct to fluffy/diffuse) and the brightness (from bright/brittle through to warm/dark). I think I might have said it before, but my opinion is: can we perfectly imitate another individual's sound (with perfect overtone equivalence etc)- probably not. But can we adjust our own sound massively (and are therefore not really limited to 'our own personal sound' that we must stick with)- absolutely yes.
All the best |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | delano wrote: | You'll have to start with buying a Monette Raja P3 STC. |
IMO Wynton always sounded better on his more conventional horns and mouthpieces. |
I agree but it's not my wish to sound like WM. Though I agree with you I still can understand why Wynton went the Monette way. |
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twestervelt New Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2018 Posts: 8
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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A good tone has a center within a center.
Try bending notes.
Also, try taking out the tuning slide and playing your music without it.
Also, buzzing with and without resistance devices is very helpful. Try Thompson's buzzing book and CDs (or mp3). |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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LSOfanboy wrote: | Hi,
To pick up on points by Lionel and Hermokiwi above.
Lionel; your comments are very interesting and the Reinhardt link is cool. It depends on your definition, but I would probably disagree that Marsalis has a particularly 'brilliant' tone (ie. a sound with a lot of brilliance), at least not in the manner that you describe with the link to Stan Mark. To me, Wynton has a broad sound, with significant diffusion and therefore with a soft edge. It is more pronounced now, on his Monette equipment, but even if you listen to Carnaval on cornet, or either of the Haydn/Hummel concerto recordings or the Tomasi/Jolivet album, there is a slight 'air' around the core of his sound and articulation. The opposite of this would be a player like Chris Martin, or actually Wayne Bergeron, who both have totally pure/efficient/resonant sounds. Its not to say that Wynton doesn't have a great sound, he absolutely does, but I don't think it is right comparing it to an 'edgy lead player', and you certainly won't get closer to Wynton's sound by using a shallower or tighter mouthpiece.
To Hermokiwi: as I have said before, I think the real answer lies somewhere between the two of us, but I disagree that a player will always sound like him/herself, especially because of physiology. I know that I can produce a whole spectrum of sounds; perhaps not control it to the extent of being able to perfectly imitate my colleagues, but there is certainly a massive variation in the sound I can produce and am not limited by 'my personal sound'. Through slight adjustments in my physical set up (firstly, the amount of air I allow into my cheeks, and secondly, a slight change in the tautness of my upper lip) and the use of the 4 trumpet mouthpieces I carry with me daily I am able to dictate, to a large extent, the focus (from clear/direct to fluffy/diffuse) and the brightness (from bright/brittle through to warm/dark). I think I might have said it before, but my opinion is: can we perfectly imitate another individual's sound (with perfect overtone equivalence etc)- probably not. But can we adjust our own sound massively (and are therefore not really limited to 'our own personal sound' that we must stick with)- absolutely yes.
All the best |
Any sound you produce is your own personal sound. You control it and you own it. If you can produce two different sounds or four different sounds or a thousand different sounds each one is still your own personal sound. At some point your physiology runs out of ways to produce an additional different sound. Identifying your own best personal sound and then using it is the gist of the Miles Davis quote. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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