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Schilkes22 Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 203 Location: Ephrata,Pa
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:09 pm Post subject: How to Play Louder |
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I'm volunteering some time with a local high school marching band. Over the summer I helped them with getting the correct notes,style etc. Now hat the show is on the field, We've noticed an issue with the balance. The section as a whole needs to be louder, especially the 2nd's. They have a pretty decent sound, it just needs to be louder. Aside from telling them to blow harder, is there something I'm overlooking? I'm sure that part of it is equipment, but I'm pretty sure that going out and buying new horns is out of the question. Most of them are playing on Bach T-300 horns and 7Cish mouthpieces.
Thanks in advance. _________________ I wish I was as good as I thought I was !!!
Schilke S22
Yamaha 631 Flugel
Warburton Mouthpieces
Berklee '95 |
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brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:23 am Post subject: |
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make the other sections play softer? (half kidding). _________________ Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL |
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Sharkbaitboi Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2018 Posts: 104 Location: Antarctica Symphony
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:23 am Post subject: |
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clean their leadpipes
Last edited by Sharkbaitboi on Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:46 am Post subject: Re: How to Play Louder |
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Schilkes22 wrote: | I'm volunteering some time with a local high school marching band. Over the summer I helped them with getting the correct notes,style etc. Now hat the show is on the field, We've noticed an issue with the balance. The section as a whole needs to be louder, especially the 2nd's. They have a pretty decent sound, it just needs to be louder. Aside from telling them to blow harder, is there something I'm overlooking? I'm sure that part of it is equipment, but I'm pretty sure that going out and buying new horns is out of the question. Most of them are playing on Bach T-300 horns and 7Cish mouthpieces.
Thanks in advance. |
This may sound silly, but it works, make sure their horns are up and make them "AIM" their sound further away in the distance. it is a visual link to the brain that should help them play louder. If they are aiming at a conductor on a stand, tell them to aim 50 yards past him or her for example.
good luck,
tom |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:15 am Post subject: Re: How to Play Louder |
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KRELL1960 wrote: | Schilkes22 wrote: | I'm volunteering some time with a local high school marching band. Over the summer I helped them with getting the correct notes,style etc. Now hat the show is on the field, We've noticed an issue with the balance. The section as a whole needs to be louder, especially the 2nd's. They have a pretty decent sound, it just needs to be louder. Aside from telling them to blow harder, is there something I'm overlooking? I'm sure that part of it is equipment, but I'm pretty sure that going out and buying new horns is out of the question. Most of them are playing on Bach T-300 horns and 7Cish mouthpieces.
Thanks in advance. |
This may sound silly, but it works, make sure their horns are up and make them "AIM" their sound further away in the distance. it is a visual link to the brain that should help them play louder. If they are aiming at a conductor on a stand, tell them to aim 50 yards past him or her for example.
good luck,
tom |
That doesn’t sound silly at all. One thing I notice in school band programs is very little mention of the fact that a trumpet is directional. Playing at a downward angle might not be a huge issue in concert band, but when you get outdoors and need projection, it is. You can also tell the kids to aim about 15 degrees above horizontal all the time, and raise toward the press box for stronger passages. Contrary to some opinions, you can play with power AND maintain good tone quality and intonation, “loud” doesn’t necessarily equal strident or forced.
Now I can hardly wait for the “marching band sucks” comments....😉
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Sharkbaitboi Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2018 Posts: 104 Location: Antarctica Symphony
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Marching band sux.. There. Now you dont have to wait |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 am Post subject: |
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As Sharkbaitboi mentioned having a gunked-up horn absolutely with cut down the resonance. The mouthpiece will make a difference. If someone asked me to play a note and loud/bright/cutting was the only critieria my Bach commercial 3S would be what I'd go to.
As far as technique, to play louder besides pumping the bellows harder your teeth and throat will/should open a bit more as well. And they need to practice playing louder - the muscles involved in driving the air work harder and there's more embouchure tension. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Clearer articulation may help too. Also try working on breathing/projection. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:31 am Post subject: |
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They also have to have the concept of projection and that "projection" and "loudness" are not synonymous terms. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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kevin_soda Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015 Posts: 558 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | They also have to have the concept of projection and that "projection" and "loudness" are not synonymous terms. |
+1 _________________ Kevin |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:18 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | They also have to have the concept of projection and that "projection" and "loudness" are not synonymous terms. |
+2! I tell students to play with a full projecting focused tone,not a loud sound.If you fill the horn you fill the room. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Sound has loudness and tone quality. There is no "projection" separate from loudness and quality. All sound "projects" or transmits. This is not something the player can control. Loudness and quality ARE controlled by the player. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Yes, but for a lot of students and amateur players, louder deceitfully equals projection.
You can have two different sounds at the same volume but to some players this will also include overblowing or distorted tone quality and, hence, not carry as well. And for another one, because his sound contains more body, he can be heard better at less volume. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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boog Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2014 Posts: 247
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Have you listened to the players individually? I know this takes time, but if you are helping the band program on a temporary basis, there must be another director or two around. Make sure that each player is playing as loud as the others, and doing it correctly, without bad and blatty tone, and with good intonation. I know, this is a tall order for an outdoor ensemble, especially during maneuvering, but it will make a LOT of difference in the group sound. Walk around and listen to the kids individually when they are on the field practicing...
I used to tell my brasses that we have a concrete wall in front of us, and we need to move it. This was common advice among corps brass instructors back in the 70's...
My marching bands were loud, when required. My ears have suffered from years of this kind of abuse! |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:29 am Post subject: |
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The horn projects much better when you are not trying to play at maximum volume: (which translates to mean as hard as you can blow!)
Over-blowing sends the sound sideways instead of forward. We all fall into this trap at times. Playing at 70-80% of your maximum output is ideal. It is a difficult concept to accept because it doesn't appear to be logical.
Pete
Last edited by Pete on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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trombino Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2005 Posts: 366 Location: Pittsburgh
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Point the bell up, the mouthpiece slides down such that there’s no upper lip in the mouthpiece, and presto whammo you’ve just killed your trumpet section. You can’t play the trumpet with one lip. As far as playing louder...fast(er) air produces loud and slow air produces soft. This assumes that both lips are sharing the workload. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:51 am Post subject: |
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The mind may also play a part. While the example is outdoor playing, the following shows how the mental concept plays a role.
I was at a big band recording session one day sitting next to a guy who had played lead with a number of known bands. I was blowing my guts out and the lead would shout in the rests, "louder, louder!".
Finally, I had about as much as I could take and yelled back, "Man, I'm blowing as loud as I can . . I'm sitting right next to you and I can barely hear you". He said his sound concept was of sending out a corkscrew of sound; that it would be heard on the recording.
Sure enough, when we listened to the playback, he was crystal clear. Have a clear, definitive mental image. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:12 am Post subject: |
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There is no simple answer to the OP's question.
About half of the players will simply need to practice playing louder. Work with them one-on-one in the practice room. Show them by example. For those players, it will be a revelation how loud they actually need to play.
The other half will need to find a better balance point in their chops. These are the players who are blowing very hard, but not much is coming out. To correct this takes time and teaching skill.
Jeff |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:34 am Post subject: |
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My son's in high school and the director and section leader put a premium on loud. To my ears, their overzealous attempts to be louder result in a tone that doesn't project well at all.
I once saw an awesome video put out by Yamaha. It featured who I believe was a NY Met player. He offered what I considered a very compelling case for achieving maximum projection without overblowing and that blowing harder than the player can control will always be counterproductive. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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ohnecael Regular Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 75 Location: Fort Wayne IN
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:53 am Post subject: Re: How to Play Louder |
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How is their tuning? are they always as in tune as they can be? How well do they support their sound from thier diaphragm? Best advice i can give from being at a Blue Stars Drum Corps camp is that you open the throat, mentally think about your sound projecting and relax. Number one thing is they have to relax because if they tense up they get out of tune and shrill. The goal for them right now is tuning and just overall feel the projection. Tell them to open up their chest and throats more. Also check horn angles if it isnt 15 degrees above parrallel then they are wrong. |
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