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boog Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2014 Posts: 247
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:00 am Post subject: Why the Big Bands Died |
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This may already be on the site, but I could not find it using the search function, so if this has been posted before, please forgive me.
FWIW, I agree with Stan Kenton's philosophy of music for art's sake. This is food for thought for all of us egghead musicologists out there.
https://www.weeklystandard.com/eric-felten/why-the-big-bands-died
Regards, |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6210
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boog Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2014 Posts: 247
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, this album (City of Glass), and a couple of others, were among my introduction to Stan Kenton when I started college. A trombone major, who lived on my dorm room floor, played these for me. What an eye-opener!
I had never heard of Stan Kenton before, and fell in love with this kind of music. But then, I was just a country bumpkin kid at the University, fresh out of the cotton patch, with aspirations of being a trumpet player.
I discovered Don Ellis in 1970, Live at Fillmore. Incredible! |
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 307 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:38 pm Post subject: Why the big bands died? |
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Without reading the referenced article, my answer is: A combination of lack of personnel during World War 2, the change in musical tastes in the 16-30 demographic, as well as the shift from jazz as dance music to jazz as a listener's experience brought on by the genre's performers. It wasn't sudden, and the death process was initiated by players like Bird and Monk as much as it was finalized by rock stars like the Beatles. Big names who preferred to use big bands as backing ensembles, like Frank Sinatra or Ella Fitzgerald, started selling fewer records than the big names who used guitar bands as backing ensembles, like Elvis Presley or Chuck Berry. Just MHO. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1969
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:19 am Post subject: City Of Glass |
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When I was with the Kenton Orchestra from 1962-63, it was the Mellophonium Band and the music we played was mostly the charts recorded with that instrumentation. On the many bus rides I would sit up front with Stan and talk about the earlier 50's bands and arrangers and as I was a devote' of the band when Maynard was the featured soloist, the name Bob Graetinger would often come up. Indeed "A Trumpet" was written for Maynard and the recording is remarkable.(Buddy Childers was the lead player) Stan told me there were many nights when he'd look at Maynard's chops and see blood. He also said it never seemed to bother him much and Maynard sailed through this piece and his main feature, "Maynard Ferguson". Interesting to note is Stan also said he really wasn't sure whether Graetinger was "playing with a full deck" or actually knew what he was doing. I had attended Berklee before joining the band and if you didn't know, Berklee was formally called Schillinger House. Schillinger was a guy who devised a system of arranging music mathematically and Graetinger was a disciple of that school. One thing about Stan Kenton, he always moved forward and gave the music a chance to succeed.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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fox Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2004 Posts: 405 Location: fla
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: |
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I saw The Stan Kenton Orchestra back in the 70's.
What I remember about him was this: he stared out into the audience. I guess he was looking for feedback, appreciation or someone just nodding in agreement. It felt like he was judging us. He was very stern.
I enjoyed the concert, but I will never forget that watchful gaze.
Doug |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9834 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I'm listening to that YouTube video as I write this. It's definitely "out there". I'm enjoying it but I don't think much of the general population would, today or back then. (Perhaps more would have back then.)
As to the OP's question, I think it's pretty clear that the coming of Rock & Roll killed off the big bands, just as the coming of the Big Bands killed off the (professional) Concert Bands of Sousa, Fillmore and many others.
By the way, my opinion of that piece ("A Trumpet") is changing as I listen. It's now in the driving big band jazz section of the song and I take back what I said! Back then I (now) think most folks liked it, and even now I think a lot would if they heard it. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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An aside - Tony, were you on the Kenton Band when Norman Baltazar was there? He helped me audition for the service bands and my mother taught at the same school as he. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9834 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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I read the article. That guy, whoever he is, really doesn't like Stan Kenton's music! |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 733 Location: California
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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The article is from the Weekly Standard. A fairly serious conservative publication. So I guess it makes sense they chose an article with that point of view.
If only those pesky big band musicians would reject modernism and just swing again. There’s a whole generation of young people just waiting to jitterbug.
Make A 415 Again. |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of the author's politics, he makes a point with a lot of truth in it.
In its era, Big Band Music was the BIG thing. It completely dominated the musical entertainment world. There were some superb musicians, arrangers and conductors working with those bands, and the upper level band leaders clearly knew what they were doing, a skill set that should not be scoffed at.
I'm not sure I agree with the author that the big bands killed themselves off by getting away from dance music. When the bebop guys started making records, it's not like they replaced the big bands. Rather, they were in addition to the big bands.
I speculate - not having been there - that when the record and ticket buying audience heard the new, smaller rock n' roll bands, they sounded SO different from what else they were hearing on the radio that it just grabbed their attention and tore it away from the big bands.
By analogy, I will always remember the first time I heard a Beatles song on the radio - "I Want to Hold Your Hand." It was so different from ANYTHING else on the radio, it was like they were from Mars. To put it in perspective, as the song was going off, someone else in the car commented, "How are they going to follow that?!?" The next song the DJ played was Eydie Gorme's "Blame it on the Bossa Nova" which was typical, bland AM radio fare of that era.
Is that what listeners thought after listening to big band music for years, then all of a sudden "Rock Around the Clock" came on the radio?
We can go on and on about the beat, the harmonies, the melodies, etc., but I think it's more likely that the new music was not evolutionary, but revolutionary - as simplistic as it was from a musical standpoint.
Let's not kid ourselves. The mass audience was not then, is not now, and will never be sufficiently musically sophisticated to put what most of us think of as "Jazz" at the top of the charts. The music of the big Bands was as close at it will ever get.
None of that should be read as suggesting that musicians should ever cease to play the most envelope-pushing music that we hear in our heads.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1493 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Speed wrote: | Regardless of the author's politics, he makes a point with a lot of truth in it.
In its era, Big Band Music was the BIG thing. It completely dominated the musical entertainment world. There were some superb musicians, arrangers and conductors working with those bands, and the upper level band leaders clearly knew what they were doing, a skill set that should not be scoffed at.
I'm not sure I agree with the author that the big bands killed themselves off by getting away from dance music. When the bebop guys started making records, it's not like they replaced the big bands. Rather, they were in addition to the big bands.
I speculate - not having been there - that when the record and ticket buying audience heard the new, smaller rock n' roll bands, they sounded SO different from what else they were hearing on the radio that it just grabbed their attention and tore it away from the big bands.
By analogy, I will always remember the first time I heard a Beatles song on the radio - "I Want to Hold Your Hand." It was so different from ANYTHING else on the radio, it was like they were from Mars. To put it in perspective, as the song was going off, someone else in the car commented, "How are they going to follow that?!?" The next song the DJ played was Eydie Gorme's "Blame it on the Bossa Nova" which was typical, bland AM radio fare of that era.
Is that what listeners thought after listening to big band music for years, then all of a sudden "Rock Around the Clock" came on the radio?
We can go on and on about the beat, the harmonies, the melodies, etc., but I think it's more likely that the new music was not evolutionary, but revolutionary - as simplistic as it was from a musical standpoint.
Let's not kid ourselves. The mass audience was not then, is not now, and will never be sufficiently musically sophisticated to put what most of us think of as "Jazz" at the top of the charts. The music of the big Bands was as close at it will ever get.
None of that should be read as suggesting that musicians should ever cease to play the most envelope-pushing music that we hear in our heads.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
'
I think the so called "Zeitgeist" went through another permutation - in plain english - people´s attention was directed towards other means to keep up the spirit. World War II was devastating, not only bodycount wise but also mentally wise. The un-restrained joy of frenzied swinging (we have in a chart from the late thirties the call to the drummer "hit everything at sight"...,) sort of, was replaced with more introspective moods.
When I listen to the swing era music I like to think that there are two different types of "airs", generally speaking, either a rather pushy, driven, "happy" air (Elk´s parade is one maybe extreme example), or a more melancholic air, to take Kenton as an example "Artistry in Rhythm", or A Nighting Gale sang, the Moonlight Serenade, or even a combination "And the Angels Sing" with that mixture of sadness and the klezmer like solo by Ziggy Elman.
In my first swing band, 1970, we had a tune by Basie, "Every Tube" - the saxes strolled around playing the highly monotoneus riff, kinda making the audience go into a certain state (I learned long after that the sweet smell in the hall was the result of many smoking hashish......)
Anyhow - during a rather long time there was a co-existens between big bands still playing the old charts, or variants of them, very appealing to many of us, Kenton´s score of Good Save the Queen - oh yes and the more introspective music by smaller combos, but to paraphrase a swedish movie "Miles Davies - well nice music but for heaven´s sake you can´t dance to it". But the "Atomic Basie" record - wow! But not for the general public.
Fine big bands still has an audience but I think the general public is more fond of rock, metal you name it. Woodstock was an expression of the "Zeitgeist", maybe a watershed - large audiences sharing not the swing but the more collective introspection - getting high together - whereas it takes two to do the lindy hop. By the way, listening to "Rock around the Clock" - gosh what a "squarish" rhythm - compare it to Fats D:s Jambalaya.... what a difference....
Sometimes I think that these older tunes were more melodious, you could remember them - the Beatles songbook definitivley so - but contemporary popular music is more fragmented, a beat that effectively stalls every attempt to think - but that maybe an expression of me getting old.
On the other hand - nowadays I play in a somewhat below medium level bigband and we are quite popular at university balls. Why? We play a mixture of very "dancable" swing scores, rock tunes, the great American song book, and presently a bunch of Beatles tunes scored for big band.
But we are supposed to stop playing say 0130, only to be replaced by disco........in my ears completely braindead(ening) music.
Keep the customer satisfied! (in itself a somewhat portentous tune which I still dig!)
Also - I live on the other side of the pond - far from the birthplace of the big bands. But I can say that when we formed that university swingband in the late sixties there were only two other big bands in our region , today we have at least 12, some of them very good, one worldclass, the "Tolvan" big band. The opportunities to play are rather scarce - and we all compete....There are many young people playing in these bands, but again, it is a restricted "herd" to follow Herman.
I think that the big band movement as we saw it in the US pre WWII was an expression of a youth movement in much the same direction as the Vietnam protest movement, the Woodstock happening etc. Never the core of the population - I agree with Marc Speed.
But I maybe wrong _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:00 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: |
As to the OP's question, I think it's pretty clear that the coming of Rock & Roll killed off the big bands, just as the coming of the Big Bands killed off the (professional) Concert Bands of Sousa, Fillmore and many others.
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This is certainly the case and one of the reasons I gave up playing the trumpet in 1965.In the beginning, around '54, my small 5 piece combo got lots of gigs like teen dances, weddings, private functions, etc., but the arrival of Elvis changed all that and through the late 50s and early 60s guys with guitars were becoming the preferred choice, and soon the DJs were replacing live bands at weddings and such because they were less costly. And despite the fact we were playing hit parade material, in the last year I played we only had a handful of gigs. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Just finished the article, and I see a very similar trend right now in regard to club bands and classic rock bands, and the reason the live music scene is dying. The musicians are doing it to themselves because they have forgotten who they are playing for - the listening (and mostly dancing) audience.
I've posted about my own experiences in the wedding/dance band a number of times, and I think one of the reasons why my band has continued to work and get booked is because we don't really play anything that isn't a dance floor tune. Unfortunately, many, if not most, bands don't see that - they want to play songs THEY like, rather than take into account songs the crowd is going to like.
This brings to mind an experience I had going out to hear an acquaintance's band. I knew Jeff from a drummer's forum - he lived here in Central Maryland, and played in a classic rock cover band. He was doing a gig in a pub, and invited me out to hear them. I swung over on my way home from a gig, still wearing my tux, to check them out.
They were a good band. They played well together, and the level of musicianship was very high across the board. The problem was, they were playing tunes almost no one knew. I know a lot of music due to my work with the wedding band - hundreds and hundreds of classic hits. I only knew one or two of the tunes they did. They were playing to themselves - the crowd was completely checked out because they didn't know any of the tunes either. If I was the bar owner, there's no way I'd have rehired them.
There are far too many bands out there who are trying to "educate" their audience, and that's not what the audience wants. They want to tap their feet, snap their fingers, clap their hands, and shake their booties to songs they know and like - it's just that simple.
I don't think Rock & Roll killed the big bands - it's was their refusal to conform stemming from a misplaced belief that they should be above it. Big bands can do rock too - that's almost all of what I had my HS jazz band playing, because I wanted to have the kids play tunes I knew they'd enjoy. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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loweredsixth Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 1847 Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:50 am Post subject: |
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I agree with you trickg, but the problem with music being purely functional (a means to an end other than musical appreciation) is that for a lot of musicians it's boring. Many musicians are trying to create art, and for them playing the same simple music is worse than getting a non-music job to pay the bills.
Most musicians in the 30s and 40s drew a distinction between swing and Jazz. Swing used strictly used as a means to get people dancing. It was a job. The arrangers in that day were pumping out charts like crazy. There was a formula.
Kenton and others were trying to say that there could be another use of big bands. They were trying to create art for people to appreciate on it's own merit. It wouldn't serve as a function to get people to do something. It just existed as art.
Now, if those musicians are complaining about not getting enough work, then they don't understand our society much. The number of people who are listening to music for intellectual and artistic appreciation is very small. There aren't a lot of musicians making a good living without playing "jobs" or working a non-music job to play the bills. _________________ The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:19 am Post subject: |
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loweredsixth wrote: | Now, if those musicians are complaining about not getting enough work, then they don't understand our society much. The number of people who are listening to music for intellectual and artistic appreciation is very small. There aren't a lot of musicians making a good living without playing "jobs" or working a non-music job to play the bills. |
Part of the problem lies in the fact that many people consider "artists" such as Beyonce, Dave Matthews, or Post Malone to be the pinnacle of musical achievement - they simply don't know any better.
One of the things that annoys me is when I see something like this:
Quote: | Requests
$20: 1 song
$10: 1/2 song
$100:
Brown-Eyed Girl
Sweet Home Alabama
American Pie
Any Jimmy Buffett
$500:
Mustang Sally
$1000
Free Bird |
Many musicians think this is funny, but it underscores the flaw in many band's mindsets, and why live music is dying. You have to play what people want to hear. Songs that my band plays regularly:
Margaritaville
Brown Eyed Girl
Sweet Home Alabama
Mustang Sally
Love Shack
Do we like those songs? Not really, but we play them because they are 100% dance floor hits EVERY SINGLE TIME. (Well, except for maybe Margaritaville - we do that song as 1st set warm-up fodder) And why? Because the average person both knows and likes those songs.
But you did illustrate the fact that it can become a job. The trick is to find a way to enjoy it. Part of why I continue to play and gig is because I enjoy the interaction with the crowd, and the fact that we are giving them something they can enjoy, whether I particularly care for it or not. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | loweredsixth wrote: | Now, if those musicians are complaining about not getting enough work, then they don't understand our society much. The number of people who are listening to music for intellectual and artistic appreciation is very small. There aren't a lot of musicians making a good living without playing "jobs" or working a non-music job to play the bills. |
Part of the problem lies in the fact that many people consider "artists" such as Beyonce, Dave Matthews, or Post Malone to be the pinnacle of musical achievement - they simply don't know any better.
One of the things that annoys me is when I see something like this:
Quote: | Requests
$20: 1 song
$10: 1/2 song
$100:
Brown-Eyed Girl
Sweet Home Alabama
American Pie
Any Jimmy Buffett
$500:
Mustang Sally
$1000
Free Bird |
Many musicians think this is funny, but it underscores the flaw in many band's mindsets, and why live music is dying. You have to play what people want to hear. Songs that my band plays regularly:
Margaritaville
Brown Eyed Girl
Sweet Home Alabama
Mustang Sally
Love Shack
Do we like those songs? Not really, but we play them because they are 100% dance floor hits EVERY SINGLE TIME. (Well, except for maybe Margaritaville - we do that song as 1st set warm-up fodder) And why? Because the average person both knows and likes those songs.
But you did illustrate the fact that it can become a job. The trick is to find a way to enjoy it. Part of why I continue to play and gig is because I enjoy the interaction with the crowd, and the fact that we are giving them something they can enjoy, whether I particularly care for it or not. |
THIS post illustrates the difference between being a PRO and being a poser that nails double c's and lip trills in your Mom's basement, IMO..... |
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loweredsixth Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 1847 Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I should point out that I am one of those musicians who is NOT interested in providing modern functional music. There's just no enjoyment for me playing non-jazz pop songs. That's why I have a day job...a good one at that! _________________ The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis
Last edited by loweredsixth on Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:10 am Post subject: |
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area51recording wrote: |
THIS post illustrates the difference between being a PRO and being a poser that nails double c's and lip trills in your Mom's basement, IMO..... |
Blessed are the poor in spirit. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: |
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loweredsixth wrote: | I should point out that I am one of those musicians that is NOT interested in providing modern functional music. There's just no enjoyment for me playing non-jazz pop songs. That's why I have a day job...a good one at that! |
I'm split - I don't pay the bills with my horn. The day job does that. However, I do enjoy gigging, and in order to do that, I play what I'm asked to play.
My son, on the other hand, wants to be an "artiste" - he's out there slinging guitar, on a nationwide tour as I type this. He's making money, but not enough to support himself, which is ok for now, but at some point he's going to have to find a way to make things work on his own. I might add, this will only last as long as this band stays on contract with their label, and/or he stays with the band, which is not a guarantee due to conflicting personalities and egos.
Anyway, bringing this back to why the Big Bands died, there are some specific reasons, some related to an improper mindset among the bandleaders and musicians in the bands, but things change - they always do. Sometimes time and the changes that naturally come with it are enough.
Think about it - at one point musicians like Franz Liszt were the "rock stars" of their day. That type of musicianship and repertoire eventually fell out of fashion for something else. Why would Big Band be any different?
What I do find interesting now is that certain selections of classic rock have continued to be played up to the present, and have not lost much in terms of popularity or freshness, in spite of the fact that some of them are nearly 40 or more years old. |
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