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Tivolian Regular Member
Joined: 22 May 2018 Posts: 84 Location: Upstate New York
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Adapting to C trumpet from Bb |
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Howdy. I recently joined a community orchestra, where the pieces are written for either C trumpet (about half) or for E or D trumpet. I am a complete novice at transposing, so I decided to buy a used C trumpet so that I have less, and easier, transposing. It arrived today, and I'm finding the initial adjustment quite challenging, mainly due to a mismatch between what my fingers and embouchure are saying and the notes that I'm hearing. My chops are tiring out very quickly, I think because of trying to constantly adjust them to what I think I should hear vs what I actually hear. My range is several full steps lower on the C, at least as of this first day.
I expected the adjustment to take some time. But I wonder if any of you gentle folks might have advice on how to make the transition from Bb to C trumpet easier. Should I just play the C horn all the time for now? Is there a way of quickly training my ear to hear the new key during warm-ups? Anything else?
Many thanks in advance. _________________ Tivolian |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Similar experience for me a few years ago.
When the need arose, I was lucky to have a '76 Bach 229 Large Bore C loaned to me by a local Symphony member friend (her spare C). Also, it was the first time I had ever played on a Large Bore horn though the Bach .462 designation is far smaller than many of the other main stream large bore designations. I used it for a few months and then ended up buying it from her. I love this horn!!!
It took a while to get used to a different pitch from what I initially expected due to a lifelong Bb acclimatization. I overcame this disorientating unfamiliarity by playing it a lot and making a mental switch to the fact that it is a "different" instrument. I began every practice session by warming up on the C before switching to a Bb for a while. I also transposed Bb parts to C in several of my ensemble practices for a few weeks (helped my transposing technique a lot too!). I use the C whenever practical, so the transition has been relatively smooth. A few years in, it's become second nature, I hardly notice the difference. As I said earlier, I love this horn. It is a joy to play.
Hope this helps.
Best Wishes,
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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tomba51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 619 Location: Hilton Head, SC
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Alternate between the 2 horns, playing the same pitches. For example, play a 2nd line G on the Bb. Then play the same pitch on the C, which will be an F. Do this for EVERYTHING you practice, long tones, scales, Arban, Clark, easy songs, everything. Play it on the Bb, then play the same pitches on the C. The sound and the feel will be different, but the pitches will be the same. You'll get the hang of it in no time. _________________ Tom Barreca |
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jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 427 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Adapting to C trumpet from Bb |
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Tivolian wrote: | My chops are tiring out very quickly, I think because of trying to constantly adjust them to what I think I should hear vs what I actually hear. My range is several full steps lower on the C, at least as of this first day.
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You're on the right track, I think.
You don't say what kind of horn you bought, but if it's anything other than a large bore Bach or Yamaha, it may be tighter and more restrictive than your Bb. If you are overblowing and/or trying to lip down to what your brain says is the pitch, you're toast.
The C isn't as finicky as a picc, but it IS different if you've never played one. So, with all that in mind, here's my 2 cents:
1. Don't overblow. Find the right support balance with the new horn.
2. Practice finding the center of pitch. Play mind games with yourself if you have to. ("It says I'm blowing a C but I know it's really a D.") James Thompson's book "Buzzing Basics" has some great exercises for finding pitch center.
3. Play the horn a lot. Warm up on it every day. Get some orchestral parts and play along with recordings on Youtube. Do your Clarkes, long tones, and slurs with it.
Eventually, you will go back and forth between the Bb and the C without much effort.
John _________________ Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc |
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Adapting to C trumpet from Bb |
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Tivolian wrote: | Howdy. I recently joined a community orchestra, where the pieces are written for either C trumpet (about half) or for E or D trumpet. I am a complete novice at transposing, so I decided to buy a used C trumpet so that I have less, and easier, transposing. It arrived today, and I'm finding the initial adjustment quite challenging, mainly due to a mismatch between what my fingers and embouchure are saying and the notes that I'm hearing. My chops are tiring out very quickly, I think because of trying to constantly adjust them to what I think I should hear vs what I actually hear. My range is several full steps lower on the C, at least as of this first day.
I expected the adjustment to take some time. But I wonder if any of you gentle folks might have advice on how to make the transition from Bb to C trumpet easier. Should I just play the C horn all the time for now? Is there a way of quickly training my ear to hear the new key during warm-ups? Anything else?
Many thanks in advance. |
Hi,
Its great you are getting out playing!
My first point would be that you should never play a certain trumpet because it makes transposition easier. If you are going to play in an orchestra you have to learn to transpose into different keys. My advice is always to learn to transpose confidently on the Bb trumpet, and then you can make better informed choices about using higher trumpets. Remember that Orchestral players don't use different trumpets to make the transpositions easier, but rather to make the part easiest for them- which often means more transposition rather than less (think about players who use C trumpet all the time, even for Bb parts. And (very common in the UK) the Bb for almost all parts unless they are of an extreme nature range or dynamic wise).
A good player elects to use the C trumpet for two reasons: the lighter and brighter sound quality (which some people find cuts better through the orchestra) and the opportunity to make particular passages fall better on the instrument (for example, lots of Mahler's solos or chorales go up to a concert B natural, this is a C sharp on Bb trumpet and so some players find it more secure as a B natural on the C trumpet, which can allow them to focus more on the music, intonation and blend. Equally, a part like The Sorcerer's Apprentice' is much easier on the fingers when using C trumpet instead of Bb).
My strong advice would be to put that C trumpet in a box for the next 3-6 months and then use all the time that you would have spent familiarising yourself on it instead to develop your transposition skills on the Bb. This will be of huge benefit to your general playing, and will make the C trumpet a far more useful tool when you do go back and pick it up (at the end of the day, you will still need to do lots of transposition when you play C, so you need to have that skill learnt).
If you don't want to follow my advice, which is your prerogative of course, then I would say that familiarising yourself with the C trumpet is a slow process that is best started with slow scales and arpeggios, as well as simple melodies, until your ear can adjust to the pitch.
All the best |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:40 am Post subject: |
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LSOfanboy wrote: | My strong advice would be to put that C trumpet in a box for the next 3-6 months and then use all the time that you would have spent familiarising yourself on it instead to develop your transposition skills on the Bb. This will be of huge benefit to your general playing, and will make the C trumpet a far more useful tool when you do go back and pick it up (at the end of the day, you will still need to do lots of transposition when you play C, so you need to have that skill learnt).
If you don't want to follow my advice, which is your prerogative of course, then I would say that familiarising yourself with the C trumpet is a slow process that is best started with slow scales and arpeggios, as well as simple melodies, until your ear can adjust to the pitch.
All the best |
I would tend to agree, however I would instead say don't spend an inordinate amount of time on it; rather, spend just a couple min a day to play something simple from Arban back to back between Bb and C. Many Arban exercises are simply rewritten into different keys, so if one is in G and in F, play the one in G on Bb and the version of it in F on C. May take 5 minutes a day max and shorten the time it takes to acclimate the ear to playing a C trumpet.
As for transposing, I recommend clef transposition, where the page is simply read in a different clef and the key signatures and accidentals are adjusted. There is a table of clefs and how to use them at the beginning of the Bordogni 24 Vocalises. For example, if you can read Bass, then with a Bb you can transpose to D easily, and with a C you can transpose to Eb and E easily.
May twist your head at first and if it's too strange, get actual music for, say, a tuba and read it straight off the page. That way you can start without needing to worry about changing the keys. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Sharkbaitboi Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2018 Posts: 104 Location: Antarctica Symphony
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Bach 1X/1B/1C/1.25C/22/24 |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:38 am Post subject: |
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What's your Bb, and what mouthpiece are you playing with it?
What C did you get, and are you using the same mouthpiece? |
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Tivolian Regular Member
Joined: 22 May 2018 Posts: 84 Location: Upstate New York
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Jerry wrote: | What's your Bb, and what mouthpiece are you playing with it?
What C did you get, and are you using the same mouthpiece? |
I mostly play my Olds Super (1955) but also have a Yamaha Xeno. I bought a used Schagerl Academica C, which is all I can afford at the moment (reminder: it arrived yesterday!). I use a Monette B6S1 mouthpiece for both, so far. If folks have recommendations about these combos, please explain.
To other responders: thanks very much! I've started on Arbans written in F and G to match pitches between the Bb and C trumpets. I have a long way to go to feel comfortable with the C, but I can already see a bit of increase in comfort level. I'm not trying to escape the need to transpose, and in fact I will be using the C to play parts written for D and E trumpet, although starting from a C will be easier. I just have no experience whatsoever with transposing and a need to learn my parts. It's also relevant that the only other trumpet player uses a C, so I'm more likely to blend with her. _________________ Tivolian |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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The biggest hurdle for me was that my chops always played the C flat, To compensate I'd keep pushing the slide in. My teacher noticed and told me to put the slide in a more conventional spot and to work on playing just a bit higher in the slot. This made all the difference. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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There are two issues here and they can be worked on separately, or in tandem, depending on then OP's mindset. These are transposition and learning to play a C trumpet.
When I have a student start to play a C, I usually ask them to take some music they know, such as easy Hering etudes, or a simple solo piece and play it on both instruments. They can try this:
On Bb - as written and then transposed up a tone.
On C - as written (just like it sounded a few minutes ago) and then transposed down a tone. (like it always sounded)
Moving back and forth between the two instruments is critical. They remember and retain the Bb settings and start to learn the differences on a C, but by staying grounded on the Bb don't go and throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Once this seems to be easy for them, we can hit those orchestral parts, even some solo repertoire. Lastly, I get them to leave the Bb at home every second week and play everything (EVERYTHING) on C. Concert band, big band, you name it. The alternative week is back to Bb. At home, they do both.
Quite quickly they they develop a more free-wheeling attitude to pitch and transposition, and even which trumpet they are playing. This is the point they can now make a musical decision as to which horn to play...
It is only a small step to play those D trumpet parts on Bb instead of C. and A parts on C instead of Bb. Voila! Transposing a third is becoming second nature. Expand out to major and minor thirds, then fourths and one is up and running playing both trumpets, and transposing wth ease. Buy a D/Eb? Buy a piccolo? The transposition is now a piece of cake.
It takes months of work, but is thorough, links the different horns into one's playing world and removes doubt, fixed mindsets ad paralysis if we leave a horn at home...
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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tptva004 Regular Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2018 Posts: 23
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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | ...When I have a student start to play a C, I usually ask them to take some music they know, such as easy Hering etudes, or a simple solo piece and play it on both instruments. They can try this:
On Bb - as written and then transposed up a tone.
On C - as written (just like it sounded a few minutes ago) and then transposed down a tone. (like it always sounded)
Moving back and forth between the two instruments is critical. They remember and retain the Bb settings and start to learn the differences on a C, but by staying grounded on the Bb don't go and throw out the baby with the bathwater...
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excellent advice!
as Andy says, doing warmups and as much C playing as possible (and alternating with Bb) helps make it feel more like home base... though i don't know about a C in big band! |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Years ago I wanted to see what the C trumpet was all about so I switched to C trumpet for almost everything. At first it felt way different and I thought, why would players want this? After a while I got used to it and it was no different than what I used to feel on the b-flat. When I went back to the B-flat, that felt funny and took time to get used to.
Unlike the others, If I played in an orchestra all the time I would probably play the C trumpet because for me, it makes transposing easier. The less we have to think about while playing, the more we can concentrate on making music. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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rogertpt New Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2018 Posts: 5
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Sing before you play - if you try to play without hearing pitch that's a recipe for disaster |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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rogertpt wrote: | Sing before you play - if you try to play without hearing pitch that's a recipe for disaster |
Welcome rogertpt!
Hearing is KEY to playing! Missing pitch (non-targeting) has more to do with hearing than any other aspect of playing. Playing then singing what you play or vice versa (ear training) is a most important component of daily practice and a major, if not the main player in accurate transposition as well as the Fast Forward Button in changing to a different keyed instrument from my admittedly limited experience. _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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starkadder Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 542
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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We could all get by with a single horn if someone were to invent a trumpet capo. Duh... |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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One piece of advice specific to the Bb to C transition. When I first started playing C trumpet, I tended to play way too low on the pitch. That's how it felt "more like a Bb trumpet." But this threw the instrument out of tune and made it play with a "ducky" tone. Once I learned to play it in the center of the pitch, then the instrument played much more in tune with itself and the tone sounded like a proper C trumpet - regal, sweet, precise.
I used pitch-bends on my long tones to get myself properly dialed into the center of the pitch on the C trumpet.
Good luck! _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Turkle wrote: | One piece of advice specific to the Bb to C transition. When I first started playing C trumpet, I tended to play way too low on the pitch. That's how it felt "more like a Bb trumpet." But this threw the instrument out of tune and made it play with a "ducky" tone. Once I learned to play it in the center of the pitch, then the instrument played much more in tune with itself and the tone sounded like a proper C trumpet - regal, sweet, precise.
I used pitch-bends on my long tones to get myself properly dialed into the center of the pitch on the C trumpet.
Good luck! |
Well stated. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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mhenrikse Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jul 2009 Posts: 162
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with the C trumpet is that even if you play beautiful, centered pitches, there are pitch problems that have to be dealt with. More so than Bb.
There are inherently flat notes and really sharp notes. Where do you put your slide? James Stamp always tuned the flattest note on the trumpet (E on a Bb) to the piano. He said, that way you won't be lipping things up...something to consider when you tune to the A on a C trumpet, which if the slide isn't pulled, is a high.
The adjustments (false fingers, lipping etc.) are situational and require vigilance. Experience is your best teacher. |
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Jon Klausman New Member
Joined: 06 May 2016 Posts: 8 Location: Marietta, GA
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Easy way to transition to C trumpet from Bb is to record yourself playing something like an Arban song out of the back on Bb and then play it on C playing with the recording to match sound. Make the Bb sound your model and try to match that sound on C. |
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