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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:06 pm Post subject: Arban Hooten Edition with SA |
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How does one use the instructions in Systematic Approach with the newer Marotta/Hooten edition of Arban instead of the older Goldman/Smith edition? |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Arban Hooten Edition with SA |
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Didymus wrote: | How does one use the instructions in Systematic Approach with the newer Marotta/Hooten edition of Arban instead of the older Goldman/Smith edition? |
I am not familiar with the Marotta / Hooten edition of the book. But it would seem to me that the same exercises would be in that book, so one would need to correlate the exercises and pages they are on by looking them up in the Carl Fischer version of the book that Systematic Approach references. Or one could simply use the Carl Fischer version. The current Carl Fischer publication which includes explanations and corrections by Claude Gordon is a pretty good book (the prior publication had a lot of misinformation in it from "revisers" who thought they knew more than Arban).
Is this new Marotta / Hooten edition different in terms of the actual exercises, or is it more a matter of different or new commentary by Misters Marotta and Hooten?
Cheers,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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AJCarter Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Posts: 1280 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Arban Hooten Edition with SA |
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John Mohan wrote: | Didymus wrote: | How does one use the instructions in Systematic Approach with the newer Marotta/Hooten edition of Arban instead of the older Goldman/Smith edition? |
I am not familiar with the Marotta / Hooten edition of the book. But it would seem to me that the same exercises would be in that book, so one would need to correlate the exercises and pages they are on by looking them up in the Carl Fischer version of the book that Systematic Approach references. Or one could simply use the Carl Fischer version. The current Carl Fischer publication which includes explanations and corrections by Claude Gordon is a pretty good book (the prior publication had a lot of misinformation in it from "revisers" who thought they knew more than Arban).
Is this new Marotta / Hooten edition different in terms of the actual exercises, or is it more a matter of different or new commentary by Misters Marotta and Hooten?
Cheers,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
John,
I've had a few students bring this edition in and it is essentially the Carl Fischer version that Hooten and his wife, Jennifer Marotta have reorganized. I do not believe there are any new exercises. However, as they are both fine players and educators, I would certainly give their views on how to apply Arban a fair shake! _________________ (List horns here) |
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Arban Hooten Edition with SA |
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John Mohan wrote: | Didymus wrote: | How does one use the instructions in Systematic Approach with the newer Marotta/Hooten edition of Arban instead of the older Goldman/Smith edition? |
I am not familiar with the Marotta / Hooten edition of the book. But it would seem to me that the same exercises would be in that book, so one would need to correlate the exercises and pages they are on by looking them up in the Carl Fischer version of the book that Systematic Approach references. Or one could simply use the Carl Fischer version. The current Carl Fischer publication which includes explanations and corrections by Claude Gordon is a pretty good book (the prior publication had a lot of misinformation in it from "revisers" who thought they knew more than Arban).
Is this new Marotta / Hooten edition different in terms of the actual exercises, or is it more a matter of different or new commentary by Misters Marotta and Hooten?
Cheers,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
I have heard that it's the same book, but reorganized with new commentary by Mr. & Mrs. Hooten. I presume they removed the commentary written by Misters Goldman & Smith, and the annotations by Mr. Gordon. The publisher also took the Goldman/Smith edition out of print, so my concern is what to do if I ever must replace my Arban and I cannot locate a used Goldman/Smith edition. |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: |
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This happened a couple years ago and is a little frustrating for some of us that know the previous edition well. Page layout was changed. For example, chromatics are not starting on page 76 or major scales starting on page 59. I have lots of pages memorized that way and it slows me down when teaching.
The comments of Claude are all gone and there are very few comments in the new edition and I would say they don’t address as many important topics. I have located the previous version and have a few copies but only sell them to students and I’m holding onto a couple for myself. Look on eBay and old music stores to find the older version.
I have been a retailer for Carl Fischer for maybe 10 years and complained to them but it won’t matter unless more people ask for the older version to be reprinted. It probably will never happen though. The CG comments in Arban were pretty useful to add clarity, which isn’t in the new version.
Talk to your local music store and Carl Fischer if you wish.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Specifically, which version of Arban's is the one with the Claude Gordon commentary?
Thanks,
Marc Speed |
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Matthew Anklan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1085 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Page layout was changed. For example, chromatics are not starting on page 76 or major scales starting on page 59. I have lots of pages memorized that way and it slows me down when teaching.
Jeff |
I have been particularly annoyed by this as well. I’m glad I have a few copies of the Goldman edition around for my own use. All of my students seem to have the newer edition. I suppose I’ll update someday as to not slow THEM down. |
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: Simpler Way Forward? |
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Then perhaps the simplest way forward is to make a page & topic conversion chart for the two editions? It's a pity that CFischer took the Goldman/Smith edition out of print, but I guess they decided it was bad business to keep two editions of the same book in the catalog. I thank all of the Gordon students & teachers who kindly responded.
Last edited by Didymus on Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: CFischer, Goldman/Smith |
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Speed wrote: | Specifically, which version of Arban's is the one with the Claude Gordon commentary?
Thanks,
Marc Speed |
The version edited by Edwin Franko Gordon and Walter Smith, published by Carl Fischer in 1982. |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2046 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | How does one use the instructions in Systematic Approach with the newer Marotta/Hooten edition of Arban instead of the older Goldman/Smith edition? |
If you have the Hooten-Marotta edition of Arban, here are the page numbers for the “Arban” part of each SA lesson:
Lesson 36: Page 40-41 #18-21
Lesson 37: Page 42-44 #22-23
Lesson 38: Page 44-45 #24-26
Lesson 39: Page 46-48 #27-30
And here are a few other conversions between the Hooten-Marotta edition and the Goldman/Smith/Gordon edition:
Gruppetto/Turn exercises begin on page 100 (page 91 in the G/S/G edition)
Interval exercises begin on page 144 (page 125 in the G/S/G edition)
Chord/Arpeggio exercises begin on page 170 (page 142 in the G/S/G edition)
Good luck! |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I heard a podcast with them where they talked about this and they said in the end it was too hard to retain page numbers. It sounds to me like it's a good edition. |
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: Thanks!!! |
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Dayton wrote: | Quote: | How does one use the instructions in Systematic Approach with the newer Marotta/Hooten edition of Arban instead of the older Goldman/Smith edition? |
If you have the Hooten-Marotta edition of Arban, here are the page numbers for the “Arban” part of each SA lesson:
Lesson 36: Page 40-41 #18-21
Lesson 37: Page 42-44 #22-23
Lesson 38: Page 44-45 #24-26
Lesson 39: Page 46-48 #27-30
And here are a few other conversions between the Hooten-Marotta edition and the Goldman/Smith/Gordon edition:
Gruppetto/Turn exercises begin on page 100 (page 91 in the G/S/G edition)
Interval exercises begin on page 144 (page 125 in the G/S/G edition)
Chord/Arpeggio exercises begin on page 170 (page 142 in the G/S/G edition)
Good luck! |
Thank you! |
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EBjazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 2368 Location: SF Bay Area
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hate it! Hard to read because everything is too spread out. The interval studies used to take up one line for each key. Easy to check them for assignments. Now they take two lines each. Many errors and they didn't even correct the errors from the older edition. They fall apart too, even the spiral bound one.
Eb _________________ Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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So this new edition has replaced the edition with Claude Gordon's commentary?!?!
Pretty boneheaded move (which is typical of Carl Fischer Music Corp). They should have kept both available.
Just ordered one of the few remaining new ones on Amazon. |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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The Goldman edition is available for free in PDF format. If you prefer it, spend the money to print on higher quality paper, and have it bound at your favorite office store that still does that kind of service.
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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JenTrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2003 Posts: 71
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Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hi everyone,
I thought I'd chime in about a few points made in here! Regarding layout, Tom and I tried to actually keep the page numbers the same and tried to fight for that, but it just wasn't a possibility. Carl Fischer took the previous edition and made it all digital so that changes in the future could be made easier. In this process, the layout had the option to keep the pages the same (which made it small and very difficult to read) or to spread out the layout a bit. I still know triple tongue as page 155, but I spent 5 minutes to re-memorize page numbers and it was fine. It's all in the same order so if people are familiar with the previous edition, finding things shouldn't be too difficult.
Regarding the changed footnotes, the Gordon/Smith edition was fantastic. My and Tom's goal was to not change the musical material, but to update how it can apply to today's student with today's equipment. We didn't want it to be the "Hooten/Marotta" Arban, we wanted it to be Arban's Arban with some clarification from us that doesn't change Arban's intention. There are plenty of versions out there (like Vizzutti's) that are great, but they've been altered to the way those players use and teach it That's a great resource as well, but again, our intention was to keep it focused on Arban and not us. While adding our footnotes, we consulted many trumpet pedagogues/teachers/performers and edited with our best judgement of the consensus and our thoughts.
In the process of editing the book, we had submitted a final approved version. However, in the process of making it digital after Carl Fischer received that final edited version, the powers that be made a lot of mistakes in the first printing of it when they changed it digitally. So at that point, I went through note by note again and submitted a big list of fixes (many of which I found and many had been sent from various people as well). I believe that has been updated in recent printings, along with improved binding. All of that (updates, materials, etc) is up to Carl Fischer though, not us.
I hope this all clarifies things or at least explains our thought process in this all!
Best,
Jennifer Marotta |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Any links available for downloading the Arban/ Goldman edition? |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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dr_trumpet wrote: | The Goldman edition is available for free in PDF format. If you prefer it, spend the money to print on higher quality paper, and have it bound at your favorite office store that still does that kind of service.
AL |
The Goldman edition available as a download to those who purchase the new book does not have Claude Gordon's explanations in it which I think are quite valuable as they dispel the (relatively few) inaccurate, dated instructions in the book and explain others that are commonly misunderstood, such as the fact that when Arban described the "tu" syllable, he did not mean "too" but rather the french pronunciation of "tew" which is more like "tee" as far as tongue position (arch) is concerned.
Are you referring to the Carl Fischer download of the Goldman edition, or is there another Goldman edition out there that is the 1982 one complete with the CG commentary?
John Mohan wrote: | Just ordered one of the few remaining new ones on Amazon. |
Well I thought I ordered a remaining CG annotated version (based on the description and photo on the seller's page). But when it arrived it turned out to be the new edition.
I've decided I'll keep it as I surely will have to be able to cross correlate the exercises with students who purchase and use the new version. The audio file download of Tom Hooten playing the Characteristic Studies (superbly!!!) is a nice bonus (there's a code in each book to use to download the files from the Carl Fischer Website).
While I appreciate the efforts made in creating the new book I am disappointed Claude's valuable contributions to the book were just thrown away. That's a shame.
I have taken a brief look at the new book and I am happy to see that though Claude's comments are gone, at least some of the new comments seem to paraphrase much of what Claude explained, in particular, the explanation regarding the true syllable being created by the french pronunciation of "tu" as being more like "tee" than "too".
Sincerely,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Old French Model New Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2018 Posts: 6 Location: Paris, France
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:16 am Post subject: Tu |
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Its very difficult for English speakers to learn to correctly pronounce the French pronoun tu. And it is not at all like a “tee” or a “too” sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFRfo2eiCK8
In order to pronounce the French tu correctly the lips must move slightly forward into a bit of a pucker as they close very slightly. There is also a feeling of openness in the nasal area, the sinus and a bit of resonance there as well.
Since we are talking about Arban, I was wondering why there is no Dedicated Forum assigned to Arban, St. Jacome and Franquin? It’s a bit like having a Forum on “The Theory of Relativity” without a dedicated forum on Einstein; or a Forum on “Aviation” without the Wright Brothers; or one on “The Light Bulb” without Edison.
I suppose this oversight stems from the fact that this is an American trumpet forum. But the clear and consistent instruction available in Arban, St. Jacome and Franquin is worthy of consideration, practice and application. Its solutions to trumpet playing are organic and do not focus unduly on one aspect of playing to the detriment of all others. And the French systems are time tested and proven by the Elite of trumpet virtuosos.
So I respectfully suggest that a “Arban, St. Jacome and Franquin” Dedicated Forum be added.
Last edited by Old French Model on Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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