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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
Just to jump in on the assertion that going red is a sign of playing high notes 'incorrectly' I thought I'd just make a list of some British Pros who definitely 'go red' when playing and are some of the finest players I have ever heard/played with or studied under, please do take the liberty of watching them on youtube as they are all stunning players:

-Maurice Murphy (former Principal LSO)
-Paul Beniston (Principal LPO and a truly phenomenal player)
-Philip Cobb (Principal LSO, mighty might player)
-James Fountain (Principal RPO)
-Jason Evans (Principal Philharmonia)
-Simon Gardner
-Mike Lovatt
-Louis Dowdeswell
-Andy Greenwood
-Ryan Quigley

The list could go on forever, but can you really suggest that those players above are all playing in some deeply flawed manner?

I hope that can help to dispel the notion of going red=playing incorrectly.

All the best


My point was never that getting red was a sign of anything, just that the extreme effort was due to sounding the note at high volume. I can sound a hi g and at times a few pitches above at no greater than a normal passive exhale. It will be at a whisper. If I apply more air it will become stronger but only to a point below and not as loud as I want. The note will choke off if I apply after a certain point. For me I have to feel the note is secure in pitch (via correct aperture and tongue position) then slowly and steadily try to apply more air until your aperture is strong enough to stay where it needs to be. And this I have found is about matching the air resistance and the acoustical resistance, I.e. playing around till the horn begins to work with you. I do this one note at @ time. Someone mentioned Dowedswell as showing redness in face, well his play is what I I strive for. Superb musician and the most at ease player I’ve ever seen. Ive never seen a guy play in the altissimo with as much ease as he has. Check out the Windworks Mystery to Mastery program it’s free to look, Greg Spense or Lewis don’t look like Lynn or a lot of guys. Volume is the culprit and volume can be increased with resonance and that doesn’t have to do with pushing more air.

There is no argument that pushing you play to Big Band volume on Buddy Rich charts requires more air , but so far I’m in the school that we blow much too hard and that creates too much tension. More air will not cause the aperture to sound the correct pitch without the aperture being in the correct position. The pitch can be sounded with very little air and in fact works best with almost no air. But since we need to be heard we apply the right amount of air to attain that volume , that is if the aperture is strong enough to hold shape against the air. If it is strong and the player is relaxed the notes will have lots of overtones and seem to be louder even if the DB is same. As stated blowing harder is only good for max 20% .? Volume, and that is not always good volume and is often thin and low in overtones. Aperture to me includes anything above the neck since I feel tongue lips jaw and face must all be one to get this pitch, and getting that pitch is my only concern. I never try to get a new note by figuring out how hard to blow first, I get the pitch then start applying air and support to get it there. I know it raises blood pressure to play high fff but I think way to much emphasis is put into blowing hard early in the process of high register development. Not that it isn’t just as important to fat high notes as aperture, tongue, jaw, face it’s just sometimes shown as the key to getting it done. When in fact it is lithe last thing you need to apply to the recipe. And you can learn efficiencies and increase resonance and reduce tension so that volume takes less effort. I say this not because I can do it (yet) but because I have seen it done. All my experience so far has pointed to this pursuit of playing trumpet to be one of coordinating things to best benefit. I cant say I’ve heard anything said that makes one factor more important than another, but each is equally necessary to achieve the goal. Another current discussion is similar, the one about tongue arch. Both aperture control and tongue position are necessary to get higher. But will we ever know which controls? Maybe they both do and all that’s needed is an unconscious coordination. John you’re right that everyone needs to increase pressure at some point to maintain equal volume when ascending. But as you mentioned in a post not everyones BP at the same rate. Lynn is extreme and pretty much a 1 trick pony (although awfully good at that 1 trick). There are some who play as high or higher than Lynn with lots of volume that don’t look even remotely like Lynn maybe Jim Manley rings a bell. Maybe those guys you say have to blow as hard as they can could tone it back if they became became more efficient and had correct aperture shape. What’s stops me from sounding a note is almost always too much or improperly applied air.

I do have a way of thinking about this as I’m sure you recognize from my post, but my mind is far from closed. Let me know where you don’t agree and why. I just want to get better.😀
Rod
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rod,

Just read your most recent post and I think I might have not been clear in my earlier posts if I led people to believe I thought the key to high notes was just blowing hard. I think I agree with pretty much everything you wrote (with the caveat that I read through it all rather quickly).

Concerning Greg Spence and others not looking like Lynn (Nicholson) when they play high notes, that video I posted earlier was of Lynn giving it all he's got, playing a Double High C on a mouthpiece rim with no supporting resistance from a (shallow V) cup or trumpet. If you look at him when he is actually performing, he makes it look almost ridiculously easy. Check out how he is holding the horn in the following video (clearly using barely any mouthpiece pressure even up on Double A's). And he doesn't even turn red, until the final 11 second phrase which culminates on a G above High C held for about 8 seconds. I don't think there's a trumpet player alive who wouldn't turn at least a bit red while playing such a thing. Highest note in Lynn's solo is an E above Double High C by the way.


Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v42j7xwOaIw

And he was so skinny! While it helps to be built like a linebacker to be a high note trumpet play, Lynn, Doc, Al Vizzutti and others prove it's not necessary.


Last edited by John Mohan on Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Hi Rod,

Just read your most recent post and I think I might have not been clear in my earlier posts if I led people to believe I thought the key to high notes was just blowing hard. I think I agree with pretty much everything you wrote (with the caveat that I read through it all rather quickly).

Concerning Greg Spence and others not looking like Lynn (Nicholson) when they play high notes, that video I posted earlier was of Lynn giving it all he's got, playing a Double High C on a mouthpiece rim with no supporting resistance from a (shallow V) cup or trumpet. If you look at him when he is actually performing, he makes it look almost ridiculously easy. Check out how he is holding the horn in the following video (clearly using barely any mouthpiece pressure even up on Double A's). And he doesn't even turn red, until the final 11 second phrase which culminates on a G above High C held for about 8 seconds. I don't think there's a trumpet player alive who wouldn't turn at least a bit red while playing such a thing. Highest note in Lynn's solo is an E above Double High C by the way.


Link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v42j7xwOaIw

And he was so skinny! While it helps to be built like a linebacker to be a high note trumpet play, Lynn, Doc, Al Vizzutti and others prove it's not necessary.

I have to agree I saw very little strain shown in this video and no signs of too much BP either. But i think you know what I’m talking about. I do think that some subjects get over emphasized at times and it leads some including me to overemphasize some aspects of playing. He is certainly getting the lower lip out so he cant use much mp pressure. To me this video is much more impressive than watching him try to blow his face thru the visualizer.👹
Rod
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scottfsmith wrote:
Quote:
If the air is going from a wide mouth cavity immediately to the lips, the air flow will be less uniform and more turbulent. If on the other hand it is going through a narrow channel first (the arched tongue) it will be more uniform ("laminar" is the physics word I believe).


If the air flow requirement is the same in the two cases the narrower path is more turbulent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminar_flow

See link.

"Laminar flow tends to occur at lower velocities, below a threshold at which it becomes turbulent."

Also, it is a law of physics that the narrower path is much more resistive. (even if the flow is laminar). Thus there is much more pressure lost through a narrower flow path for a given flow. Actually by an exponential amount in proportion to the path radius.

ANY resistance before the aperture is a liability to air power available to the aperture. The greater the resistance the more the liability.

Likewise the aperture resistance itself is a liability to air power applied to the instrument tone. But aperture resistance is unavoidable. The ratio of instrument resistance (due to the tone) to the aperture resistance can be improved upon by the player with experience and increased skill.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kalijah"]scottfsmith wrote:
Quote:
If the air is going from a wide mouth cavity immediately to the lips, the air flow will be less uniform and more turbulent. If on the other hand it is going through a narrow channel first (the arched tongue) it will be more uniform ("laminar" is the physics word I believe).


If the air flow requirement is the same in the two cases the narrower path is more turbulent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminar_flow

See link.

"Laminar flow tends to occur at lower velocities, below a threshold at which it becomes turbulent."

Also, it is a law of physics that the narrower path is much more resistive. (even if the flow is laminar). Thus there is much more pressure lost through a narrower flow path for a given flow. Actually by an exponential amount in proportion to the path radius.

ANY resistance before the aperture is a liability to air power available to the aperture. The greater the resistance the more the liability.

Likewise the aperture resistance itself is a liability to air power applied to the instrument tone. But aperture resistance is unavoidable. The ratio of instrument resistance (due to the tone) to the aperture resistance can be improved upon by the player with experience and increased skill.[/quote


Also, it is a law of physics that the narrower path is much more resistive. (even if the flow is laminar). Thus there is much more pressure lost through a narrower flow path for a given flow. Actually by an exponential amount in proportion to the path radius.

Could this be what we amateurs don´t seem to understand? I mean - the water hose analogy describes how the water seems to be ejected more forcefully if the hose end is pressed upon. Amateur common sense then understands this as if the pressure rises - given same pressure up to the squeeze (from the outlet). Expert view then is that this is not the case at all - instead (maybe according to Bernouille) the water should flow faster, gaining kinetic energy ("higher pressure regions lower fluid speed" and the reverse). I tend to fancy the idea that the flow gets concentrated (like laser) instead of getting dispersed all over.
The aperture restricts the flow, or concentrates it, but the same pressure exists until the air leaves the lips thus getting reduced to "normal pressure". Does the air then move faster? Or just more concentrated? But now we have kinetic energy in the form of a wave soon "creating sound".
Please educate me once and for all if this is rubbish!
Sorry if I seem silly. I´m if not from Barcelona so Sweden.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Amateur common sense then understands this as if the pressure rises - given same pressure up to the squeeze (from the outlet).


The amateur error is that belief that the pressure rises to be greater than the source pressure.

The pressure on the outside of a nozzle due to kinetic pressure is NEVER greater than the pressure in the hose just before the nozzle. It may be close, but it is less by some amount. ALWAYS.

The "amateur" error is to compare this case to the high-flow case without the nozzle. In the higher flow, no -nozzle case there is much pressure lost due to the viscous losses in the long hose.

If the pressure was indeed constant before the nozzle the velocity of the flow out of the nozzle would be the same regardless of the size of the nozzle.

So the amateur view is to discount the resistance of the hose itself. Just as they discount the resistance of a pronounced tongue arch.

The tongue arch does NOT concentrate the pressure or the flow.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darryl since you PM'd me I responded there. For anyone following along here, the main reason why I raised the issue of turbulent vs laminar flow was to show there are other aspects of the physics that could be involved, showing that in general there could be a key a dimension left out its very hard to have any certainty that the tongue is not altering the physics of high note production -- you need to "whack all the moles" to be sure.

Also in the PM dialogue I mentioned that there could be yet another dimension we have not discussed thus far, an effect similar to what the tongue is doing in whistling. It is well known that raising the tongue is changing the impedance of the mouth cavity which is altering the pitch of a whistle. I'll let Darryl respond to why he didn't think that applied.

I subsequently emailed a leading expert in the field of wind instrument acoustics asking their opinion. Here is my question and their reply.

Quote:
Quote:
Hi, I am a scientist and amateur trumpet player. It is well known that all or nearly all trumpeters arch their tongues up for high notes (C6 or thereabouts), but there has been no explanation I can find for why this is happening, and some people think its not actually helping any of the physics and is just some side-effect of embouchure positioning.


The short answer is that I don’t know for sure. I think it is to do with the impedance spectrum of the vocal tract and its interaction with the vibrating lips, but the interaction is not simple and the details are not, so far as I know, properly understood.


So, its very much an open question but this expert hypothesizes it is related to the mouth cavity impedance.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One amateur mistake is exaggerating the applicability of a thumb over the end of a hose, creating a jet of water, as a model of the narrow tunnel between the tongue and the palate and its effect on air speed and pressure through the vibrating lip aperture.

In the hose model, when the water exits the hose/thumb assembly, it leaves the system in which the Bernoulli principle can be applied. There is nothing in the hose-full-of water system that is downstream from the hose/thumb assembly. To use this as a model of the effect of the the tongue tunnel on a trumpet-playing airway system, you'd have to remove the horn, mouthpiece, and lip-aperture from the system, making the tunnel the exit of the system. Probably your upper dentures, too.

But when the whole lung/trachea/mouth/tunnel/aperture/mouthpiecethroat/leadpipeventuri/trumpet/etc system is in place, if the cross-section area of the tunnel is smaller than the cross-section upstream or downstream, then the air speed will be higher and the pressure lower in that tunnel, than in any wider part of the system. But the speed and pressure at the vibrating lip aperture is largely determined by the cross-section area of that aperture (and other sources of friction at the aperture), not by the speed or pressure in the tunnel. Bernoulli.

Modifying the trumpet/player system to better match the model, by removing the trumpet and the players lips, is not particularly useful. Better to modify the model. A better hose model would place the restriction inside the system, not at the system’s exit. Squeeze the hose a foot or two upstream of the open end; what happens to the jet? Replace the thumb with a conical firehose-style nozzle, and slip a length of tubing firmly over the nozzle cone; what happens to the nozzle jet downstream at the end of the added tubing?

Another amateur mistake is ignoring the fact that the water coming out of the hose is coming out into air, not water. A huge difference in density. There is no such huge difference in density between air in the tunnel and air downstream of the tunnel. So if you insist on suggesting that it's like sweeping pebbles off your driveway with a hose and a thumb, you should at least try sweeping pebbles off the bottom of your swimming pool with the same setup, which is not nearly as impressive, but is a closer analogy to the player/trumpet air system.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want someone to tell me how to get past the point where the lips oscillate and produce notes then suddenly stop when you try for the next. I don’t really need to know how it all works as much as how to get past this pesky problem. I’ve got a method that does it 1 note at a time and it takes forever to get it to play speed.

I’m a bit tongue in cheek on this, but does anyone else have this issue and wouldn’t you like some guidance on this one specific issue.
Rod
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:


The tongue arch does NOT concentrate the pressure or the flow.


When playing in the upper register the tongue most certainly does concentrate the flow.



https://i.postimg.cc/nrgBWfvH/Sarah_Willis_Playing_in_the_Middle_Register.jpg



https://i.postimg.cc/15Vpq4Q4/Sarah_Willis_Playing_in_the_Extreme_High_Register.jpg


To say otherwise, in light of the clear evidence that is now available and has been available to some extent since the late 1960's, is just plain nuts.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I just want someone to tell me how to get past the point where the lips oscillate and produce notes then suddenly stop when you try for the next. I don’t really need to know how it all works as much as how to get past this pesky problem. I’ve got a method that does it 1 note at a time and it takes forever to get it to play speed.

I’m a bit tongue in cheek on this, but does anyone else have this issue and wouldn’t you like some guidance on this one specific issue.
Rod


Hi Rod,

In my experience, this can be caused by at least three different things, or some combination of them.

1) Too much mouthpiece pressure. As one plays higher and higher and uses more and more mouthpiece pressure one can reach a point where the mouthpiece is preventing the lips from being able to move under the mouthpiece to the position they need to be in for a good, free vibration on that high note the player is trying to reach. I have had success reaching higher notes during an arpeggio-type range exercise by purposely trying to limit mouthpiece pressure a bit. Generally, as I reach arpeggios that start around middle C and end on high C I try to use the same amount of mouthpiece pressure for the high note at the end of the exercise as I used for the lower note at the beginning of the arpeggio. This does make the highest note feel a little harder to play, but by doing this, I have found that I can usually get a step or two higher in the exercises than I otherwise could if I just "let the mouthpiece pressure take care of itself" as my teacher used to instruct us to do. (This is the only time I consciously try to limit mouthpiece pressure - normally I think Claude's advice on this subject was correct that with proper practice and development, mouthpiece pressure will take are of itself).

2) Too much lip tension. I have found that sometimes if I experience a lack of lip vibration it can help to visualize blowing a candle out on the other side of the room as I go for a high note. This psychological game I play with myself can help keep things open.

3) Too much tongue arch. Similar to the issue with too much lip tension, I have found that sometimes if I experience a lack of lip vibration it can help to visualize blowing a candle out on the other side of the room as I go for a high note. This psychological game I play with myself can help keep things open.

There is also the possibility that the player is straining and incorrectly arching the back of the tongue up and the soft palate down choking off the air supply almost as if grunting. And even if the player is doing everything correctly, it can also be the case that the player is simply trying to play a note that requires more supporting air pressure than the player is able to supply.

For many years (from about 1986 to around 1998) I had an issue with the G above High C. I could play F#'s that could knock down a wall but the G was tiny and sporadic - or wasn't there at all. I usually could get to around a (tiny) DHC during practice, but as far as performance was concerned, I had F#'s through the end of the night yet if I had a G at all, it was only during the first few minutes of a performance. Finally, I broke the barrier and got the G (and then with time, full power notes up to DHC). What did it for me was to get up to the F# and then blow a whole lot harder while NOT trying to tighten my lips or arch my tongue more. I just played the F# and blew harder, and the note would click up to the G with a good full sound. Then with time, as I developed more air power strength using the Part 1 and Part 2 exercises in Claude's Systematic Approach book, the range climbed up about a half a step every month or two. And as soon as I stopped doing the exercise every day it was like Cinderella's coach at midnight - my full power range dropped back down to the G above High C. But for me that's plenty these days. And I know what I need to do to get the higher notes back - I'm just too lazy to do it!

I don't know if this will be helpful to you but I hope it is.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all the video shows a player as she ascends in pitch. She is absolutely concurrently manipulating the aperture tension to ascend.

If you claim she is not what is your proof? How is embouchure effort measured here?

Of course you ignore this requirement because it does not fit your tongue-arch-does-all worldview.

The EXTREMELY high embouchure effort requirement for the aperture to be firm enough to pulsate at these highest pitches elicits a strong reaction of the mouth floor to move forward. It is an intense extreme of the seed-spitting reflex. It is VERY difficult if not impossible to do this effort with the inner corners and not have the tongue NATURALLY move into this position.

This related movement is VERY easy to demonstrate and PROVE to oneself.

Quote:
But what is not superfluous to this discussion is how that blowing force acts upon a varying sized area of the lips depending upon the amount of tongue arch applied.


The blowing "force" occurs with the muscles of exhalation. This is a major error in your reasoning. It is not "force" that acts on the embouchure, it is pressure.

Once the pressure is established in the lungs, this pressure then acts on ALL POINTS inside the pressurized boundary. This is THE pressure regardless of the size of the oral space.

Quote:
And I think your misunderstanding of that fact is the foundation of your misinformed point of view on this entire subject.


Nope. YOUR misunderstanding is that you think because you are considering a smaller area that there is more force. When the opposite is true.

You are still erroneously attempting to claim that Force=pressure/area just as you did in the past.

The truth is that Force = pressure x area so a smaller area considered would yield less force. Not more. And the pressure is the pressure established in the lungs.



Quote:
Every competent brass player (including you and me), whether they realize it or not, most certainly can vary how much of the lip receives the force of the air stream.


I think you mean the "pressure" of the air. And the "stream" is not what is bearing pressure on the area where the aperture is. The total pressure is. Which is very dominantly static pressure. The stream depends on the flow as a result of the downstream resistance of the aperture and instrument.

Flow=Pressure/resistance

So the air simply flows toward the aperture to replace the air that has "flowed" through the aperture. This "flow" velocity is NOT what is responsible for the air pressure acting on the aperture.

Quote:
When the tongue is down low and the jaw is lowered, the air pressure is acting on the entire cross section of the lips.


SO what! The air pressure is also acting on the roof of the mouth, The throat, the lung walls. Everything inside the boundary of pressure.

It also does act on the area that INCLUDES the pulsing aperture. But the limits of the aperture are determined by the aperture muscles and with some help from the mouthpiece rim. The "entire cross section" of the lips are not pulsating simply because they are exposed to air pressure.

The aperture also really does not change in size that much from low to high. The "firmness" or "tension" however, varies DRASTICALY. And it is the aperture muscles that control this. It is not the tongue arch that determines how much aperture pulsates NOR does it confine the pressure to ONLY that area. Even if the oral space is VERY small for the high pitches the pressure is still acting on all surfaces that are exposed to it. The aperture is only a subset of that area. The pressure also acts on the roof of the mouth and the tongue surface itself

The aperture is ALREADY far smaller than the air path over the tongue for almost the entirety of the range. The path approaches the size of the aperture only for the highest pitches and the most drastic arching action. But it would be weak to claim that it was the arch the CAUSED the aperture to be small. IT WAS ALREADY THAT SMALL FOR THE FULL RANGE.


Quote:
But when one arches the tongue up and forward to play a high note, the airstream is reduced to an extremely narrow jet and that jet of air only hits a tiny area of the lips.


This is simply your visual imagination. Even Lynn Nicholson has stated that the same amount of lip vibrates from low to very high pitches. And he is correct. The lips vibrate rim to rim. And the muscles of the lips determine its tension and thus the pitch played.

And there is not a "jet" that "hits" only the aperture as you imagine. The air flows along the remaining boundary which is bounded by the roof of the mouth and gums on the top. This ends up being a "downward" flow near the aperture. The air then makes a hard turn to level and flows THROUGH the aperture when it opens on each cycle. The only stream or what you call "jet" is that air that flows THROUGH the aperture due to the flow requirement. (And it is a "pulsed" jet at that.)



Quote:
Take a look at this part of the Sarah Willis video to see this clearly being demonstrated:


The video only shows what the obvious anatomy is doing. However it does NOT do the following:

Measure air flow, air pressure or air velocity ANYWHERE.
Measure the muscular effort or tension in the aperture. (Which IS changing to ascend)
Measure air power to sound efficiency.
It also does not show aperture size nor tongue arch cross-section anywhere.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darryl, did you see my quote above from an acknowledged expert in the physics of wind instrument sound production? He believes it is change in the mouth impedance which is the reason for the tongue arch.

l also asked the expert about velocity/pressure and he is more on your side there. I am also more on that side now but the system is very complex and I don't think we can even be certain on that.

For example, one thing you may be incorrect on is

Quote:
The aperture also really does not change in size that much from low to high.


There is a Youtube by Charlie Porter if I recall (which I can't find now) where he touches his lips as he free buzzes higher and higher notes, and you can see the portion of the lip involved in the buzz gets smaller and smaller as he goes higher - he is touching the lip right by the center and its not affecting the sound on high notes, whereas touching the lip in the same spot on lower notes interrupts the sound.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Darryl, did you see my quote above from an acknowledged expert in the physics of wind instrument sound production? He believes it is change in the mouth impedance which is the reason for the tongue arch.


I saw it. There are problem with this theory from my observations.

When using an embouchure that uses a conventional arch (manipulating the inside corners with a "roll-out" action) the highest pitches require a very pronounced arch. (As in the videos above) Which would yield a VERY high frequency resonance mode.

The resonance frequency of the oral space is then approximately two octaves or more above the fundamental pitch frequency of any pitch played.

For specialty "high gear" (Walt Johnson) or "rolled-in" (John Lynch) apertures that do not require a pronounced arch the oral resonance could more possibly effect the system on very high pitches, but they still will not trump the embouchure function in producing the pitch played. In any case these embouchures utilize the full air pressure that the lungs provide. Not the attenuated air pressure due to the high-resistance of an extreme tongue arch. Same applies for TCE somewhat.

Another problem with these "oral impedance" theories is that they assume there are no resonance modes (and thus acoustic impedances) on the trumpet on the very high pitches. However an impulse response reveals that there are indeed resonance frequencies up to double c and beyond. They are progressively weaker but they are there.

Quote:
There is a Youtube by Charlie Porter if I recall (which I can't find now) where he touches his lips as he free buzzes higher and higher notes, and you can see the portion of the lip involved in the buzz gets smaller and smaller as he goes higher


But playing is not free buzzing. When playing a trumpet at useable tonal volume the lip vibration is rim to rim. Certainly not 1/2 the length for each octave. There is an excellent clear mp video available that shows just this. I will find it.

Lyn Nicholson also has a video on the subject I believe.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi OP here just an observation that i had no idea that physics could be applied so thoroughly into such a topic of tounge arch. I really enjoy reading this thread as it becomes more thoroughly explored. thank yuou for expanding upon topics that im interested in!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYmX-frcBI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just use an actual cookie cutter. fixes all issues
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:54 pm    Post subject: New trump player Reply with quote

While I’m more comfortable with trombone, I’m now also learning trumpet. Find it quite challenging though endurance and range improves, the latter more. I tried tongue arch, but find it that I have to remember to do it. The minute I don’t think about it I don’t even try. Maybe natural for whistling, but with trumpet it doesn’t happen for me. I can reach much higher notes than my highest reliable space c, but I suspect the is a way I accidentally place the mouthpiece that make me reach higher notes. I once reached a b flat above staff. Even if I go to the mirror when that happens I seem unable to replicate when I need. Perhaps it just takes a while as I have only been playing 2 months.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
The resonance frequency of the oral space is approximately two octaves or more above the fundamental pitch frequency of any pitch played.


Did you see this paper? http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/TrumpetTract.pdf On the higher notes in Figure 3 the measured vocal tract resonances are not far off the sounding pitch, and are more below rather than above the pitch, the opposite of direction you are claiming. This is not theory, these are actual measurements. There is no first resonance showing up for trumpet but it would be even lower.

Quote:
Another problem with these "oral impedance" theories is that they assume there are no resonance modes (and thus acoustic impedances) on the very high pitches. However an impulse response reveals that there are indeed resonance frequencies up to double c and beyond. They are progressively weaker but they are there.


If you look at Figure 3 in the above paper there are indeed impedance data reported for at least up to G6 (there is not more high note data due to the probe apparently interfering with players abilities to get the higher notes out). I'm not sure what theories you are referring to.

Quote:
But playing is not free buzzing. When playing a trumpet at useable tonal volume the lip vibration is rim to rim. Certainly not 1/2 the length for each octave. There is an excellent clear mp video available that shows just this. I will find it.


I looked at that video, there is only one high note in it at around :30 and my impression is there is more of a focus to the buzz in that one compared to the previous notes. There is a slowed down portion later but unfortunately not for that high note. Note I am not suggesting that the lips vibrate half as wide for each octave, only that the width is decreasing as you get well above the staff.
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