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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:57 am Post subject: Let’s (Not) Get Lost |
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When you’re soloing what helps you keep your place - especially if the form is not the usual 12 or 32-bar form?
A good example is “Way Down Yonder in New Orleans” which is 28 bars. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:23 am Post subject: |
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For me, thinking about phrases, like 4-bar phrases or whatever, instead of notes or riffs helps me find my way. If I can keep a macro view I'm less likely to get lost in the notes. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Phrase-focusing helps me, too. I get thrown on odd forms. On "Way Down Yonder" for example. The 28-bar form seems to trick me up. I often blow though the end.
As a remedy, I got the Jamey Abersold playalong with that tune on it and have been shedding. Helps a lot. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Analyse the tune and know its subdivisions (how many bars in A, how many n B, etc.)
Know the large harmonic directions, then the smaller ones within that.
Know the song and its words, if applicable.
Have big ears.
This last is important. I had a friend who had been gone the year at music conservatory studying jazz. We were playing the same jam session and he accompanied a singer. Sounded really cool. He was doing unique things, harmonically. It sounded "wrong" yet fit perfectly.
Anticipating that he had learned something new and cool at conservatory, I asked him what he was doing. He said, "I was lost!", LOL. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: |
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I pulled out a fake book with Way Down Yonder in New Orleans. I see what you mean... weird construction. Starts with a conventional 8-bar section. Then it repeats... or so we think. After only 4 bars of the repeat, it lurches off into a surprise 8-bar interjection. (Lyrics: "Stop!") Once that's done, it wraps up with a routine 8-bar phrase that resembles the original section.
So if I were playing this, I'd think: 8 + 4 + (Surprise! 8) + 8. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: |
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I recall talking with Nic Payton during intermission at one of his gigs and I asked him if he counted bars when he was soloing and he looked at me as if I had just arrived from Venus and said, “No.” _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Dstdenis, thanks for that. Breaking it down is the way to go. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Back to top |
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GizB Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 200
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Your drummer, who IS counting, after a fashion, should help cue section changes. A good drummer can save your asterisk! |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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GizB wrote: | Your drummer, who IS counting, after a fashion, should help cue section changes. A good drummer can save your asterisk! |
I was going to say that about the bass player. They should be your rock and guide to everything. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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He’s a good drummer. I just need to listen. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Back to top |
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GizB Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 200
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | He’s a good drummer. I just need to listen. | That helps too! |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2416 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Let’s (Not) Get Lost |
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jhatpro wrote: | When you’re soloing what helps you keep your place - especially if the form is not the usual 12 or 32-bar form?
A good example is “Way Down Yonder in New Orleans” which is 28 bars. |
I think what has helped me the most is that I play most jazz songs from memory. Part of my daily routine is to cycle through a list a common jazz standards, where I practice both the melody and the changes. The more familiar I am with a song, the less likely I am to get lost.
I don't know if others do it, but while I solo (and also when others are soloing), I'm almost always thinking of the melody.
On repetitive songs (like Little Sunflower) or atypical songs (like Take 5), I limit my solos to very clear 4- or 8-bar phrases, and emphasize the downbeats.
You can also listen to the changes to keep from getting lost. Many songs have distinctive changes at some point. For example, on a particular song, a distinctive chord progression may precede the bridge.
If all else fails, we don't stop the song. Instead, while we're still playing, I just shout out that we're going back to the top and count it off.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Good stuff, Mike! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Back to top |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Any brain power you use counting is brain power you could be using for listening...I'd rather listen than count. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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