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Deep Medium or Shallow Mouthpieces....?



 
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Les Gladdis
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Joined: 01 Oct 2018
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Location: Newport, Isle Of Wight, UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:34 pm    Post subject: Deep Medium or Shallow Mouthpieces....? Reply with quote

Thanks for the add, I'm new to this page.
Marching Band (with some Rock numbers), Concert Band (mixed genre) & pub blues rock pop
Yes I know, the old mouthpiece question again, and practice of long notes is correct and has been beneficial. I do long notes accompanying hymn tunes to make it more interesting

Two different though both meritorious professionals have recently gave me conflicting MP opinions.
1) A former Royal Marines Bandsman with a Salvation Army background advised me to go "as deep as possible)
2) A professional trumpet player educated at The Trinity College of Music says "as shallow" as possible.

From my menagerie below, I struggle with the 3E shallow.
Is it worth persevering or put both Tpt & Cnt 3E back on E bay ?
_________________
Cornets:-
Bach 184L (2003),
Bach 184SML (1984)
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial (1975) (Frosty)
Trumpets:-
Bach 180-37ML (1979) 70/30 Raw/Lacq, NICE!!!
Bach Mount Vernon ML (c1957)
Bach 180-43 SML (1995)
MP's VB 2, 3C & 3E (Tpt & Cnt)
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Sharkbaitboi
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play your 3C’s. Ditch the 3E, that is what i would consider a very specialized mouthpiece. It is super shallow and probably not what you want in terms of having stylistic flexibility
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Les Gladdis
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Joined: 01 Oct 2018
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Location: Newport, Isle Of Wight, UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply.
I like 3C as my main MP.
I also like "2" as an ex Brass Band Cornet player. Would you use this as a "Long-Note" practice "piece"...?
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Cornets:-
Bach 184L (2003),
Bach 184SML (1984)
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial (1975) (Frosty)
Trumpets:-
Bach 180-37ML (1979) 70/30 Raw/Lacq, NICE!!!
Bach Mount Vernon ML (c1957)
Bach 180-43 SML (1995)
MP's VB 2, 3C & 3E (Tpt & Cnt)
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:50 am    Post subject: Re: Deep Medium or Shallow Mouthpieces....? Reply with quote

Les Gladdis wrote:
Thanks for the add, I'm new to this page.
Marching Band (with some Rock numbers), Concert Band (mixed genre) & pub blues rock pop
Yes I know, the old mouthpiece question again, and practice of long notes is correct and has been beneficial. I do long notes accompanying hymn tunes to make it more interesting

Two different though both meritorious professionals have recently gave me conflicting MP opinions.
1) A former Royal Marines Bandsman with a Salvation Army background advised me to go "as deep as possible)
2) A professional trumpet player educated at The Trinity College of Music says "as shallow" as possible.

From my menagerie below, I struggle with the 3E shallow.
Is it worth persevering or put both Tpt & Cnt 3E back on E bay ?



Welcome to this versatile and heterogenous forum - I´m rather new too in spite of all posts. And amateur at that.
Your combination of horns alerted me - you see, I´m raised in the brassband tradition, starting out on mouthpiece Salvation Army nr 1 10 years later replaced by a Bach 1 1/4C and then I began doubling on trumpet as well, big bands (lead.
But!
Today I understand that 1 would have been benefitted by 1)lessons
2)a better understanding of what type of mouthpiece serves different types of music. I used the same mpc in all kinds of music, even soprano cornet but then Bach 1 1/2 C.
For one - I should have used a mouthpiece suitable to playing lead.
Finally I realized that the problem was to find a piece that made the switch between brassband/concert band cornet and trumpet easy.
Initially I had a hard time doing this switch. The cornet piece Wick Ultra kind of V cupish)), deep as it is, however not the huge bore as the classical Wicks was hard to combine with the shallow C cups traditionally used for lead I(like Schilke 14/15 A4(a) and the like. Thin tinny sound.
A pro friend of mine told me you should have a mpc as deep as it could be - still allowing you to endure hard gigs .
But this combination just did not suit me. Going from deep to shallow. Nope. Then I got the idea maybe a V cupish trumpet mpc might do it - more shallow but more room for my lips. I got help from this forum directing me to Stork mouthpieces and so I found my combination.

So my advice is find yourself a mouthpiece which "shows off" your personal sound, feels comfy (for me rounded rim is a prerequisite), sounds warm, permits a sonorous singing style - may it be a 3C or whatever (I was very surprised when I found that a 7C (Ultra) gave me exactly that on the cornet, and the trumpet in concert bands, 16.25 mm diamater instead of a lifetime 17.06). This should suffice when say D above high C is the normal limit.
If you are required to play in other settings like big bands, stay with this combination (same on trumpet and cornet) on all positions except lead. There you need something more shallow - the V cup shape did it for me.
Also - there is a huge difference between playing cornet and trumpet, not easily described but the attitude, attack, general way of playing is different. To bear in mind but I´m sure your´e already familiar with this!

ps: since your are living on the island - a Wick shop might be close to you: test their American Classic line! The 3E is very special. Yes E bay!
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Getzen 300 series
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Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C
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Schilkes22
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say use the 3C for the majority of your work. I had a 3E and hated it. rim was not the same,so switching back and forth was a hassle. It also did not give the desired sound. I now use a brand that I can switch cup depths and have the rim be the same. I use the cups more to match the sound of the group/section that I'm playing with. For solo church stuff and practicing at home, I like the deepest cup that I have.

If I had to use only one mouthpiece, a 3C would be my go to.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 on the previous responses.

3C for most if not all of your work.. both deep and shallow are for specialized work. I'll admit that I change to a shallower mouthpiece for "commercial" work, but it's to a medium depth mouthpiece, which allows me to maintain "my sound" but add a little zip on top. (Note that I did not say "add notes"). Likewise, I will, on occassion, go to a deeper cup when needed, to help me round out the tone especially in the lower registers.
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Play the biggest mouthpiece that you can play."
"Play the smallest mouthpiece that you can play."

Maybe we should just play the mouthpiece that you can play!

If the mpc is too big or too open for you, your endurance will suffer, you will not be able to play loud passages with a good core of sound, your articulations could be woofy, range will suffer, etc. Only intelligent play testing and knowing what to listen for will guide you in the right direction.

If the mpc is too small or too tight for you, once again, loud passages will not work as the sound will be too small and thin, flexibilty will be hindered, range will suffer, and most obvious will be missed articulations, especially if the alpha angle is too high. Once again, back to a series of intelligent play testing that will tell the tale. Some players will use larger volume pieces for all around work, and smaller volumes for commercial lead. If the mouthpieces allow you to play a big centered sound accurately, then knock yourself out.

Is your 3C the best for you? In a series of blind play tests, we sent out three mouthpieces that were all the same except for rim contour. They were a GR 66M, GR 3M, and a GR with a rim closer to Bach 3. No one knew what they were as they were engraved "Red", "Blue", and "Yellow". These went to 50 players here on the Herald. Look up the thread, I think it was called GR Beta Test. Anyhow, the 66M was the favorite 85% of the time, 3M 10%, and the Bach 3 rim only 5%.

I hope this helps a bit. If the 3 diameter is working for you, try some other rim contours in that general diameter andsee if things improve. Try different cup volumes and play test side by side using articulation etudes etc. Email me if you have any questions:
grmouthpieces@gmail.com

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. Scriver wrote:
"Play the biggest mouthpiece that you can play."
"Play the smallest mouthpiece that you can play."

Maybe we should just play the mouthpiece that you can play!

If the mpc is too big or too open for you, your endurance will suffer, you will not be able to play loud passages with a good core of sound, your articulations could be woofy, range will suffer, etc. Only intelligent play testing and knowing what to listen for will guide you in the right direction.

If the mpc is too small or too tight for you, once again, loud passages will not work as the sound will be too small and thin, flexibilty will be hindered, range will suffer, and most obvious will be missed articulations, especially if the alpha angle is too high. Once again, back to a series of intelligent play testing that will tell the tale. Some players will use larger volume pieces for all around work, and smaller volumes for commercial lead. If the mouthpieces allow you to play a big centered sound accurately, then knock yourself out.

Is your 3C the best for you? In a series of blind play tests, we sent out three mouthpieces that were all the same except for rim contour. They were a GR 66M, GR 3M, and a GR with a rim closer to Bach 3. No one knew what they were as they were engraved "Red", "Blue", and "Yellow". These went to 50 players here on the Herald. Look up the thread, I think it was called GR Beta Test. Anyhow, the 66M was the favorite 85% of the time, 3M 10%, and the Bach 3 rim only 5%.

I hope this helps a bit. If the 3 diameter is working for you, try some other rim contours in that general diameter andsee if things improve. Try different cup volumes and play test side by side using articulation etudes etc. Email me if you have any questions:
grmouthpieces@gmail.com

Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com


If the OP is going to pay attention to anyone posting about this, advice from someone who is in the business of making mouthpieces is probably a good place to start.

IMO, statements telling the OP specifically which size and make of mouthpiece to use are likely incorrect. A problem with a forum like TH is that there are knowledgeable and accomplished players here, and there are also inexperienced people who present themselves as experts, and should probably learn to talk less and listen more.

Brad
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Sharkbaitboi
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just get a curry 3C. th's favorite mouthpiece
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JVL
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
why not try then a 3D ? or a yam 14B4?
Roger Ingram says something like for lead, choose the smallest/shallowest mpc you can use, for classical, the largest/deepest you can use.

i personnally play with the same ID on all my mpcs; i have 12 versions including flug & cornet mpcs. I practice everyday on my shallowest mpc (#28 throat) and a deep Bach A cup type mpc (with #26 throat, sympho bb), i use professionnally regularly 7 of these mpcs.

but this is possible only with time, practice and experience/knowledge.
Don't be afraid to use 2 mpcs, and don't pay attention to dogmatic opinions. Have lessons with good teachers, listen to wise pros, and try smartly by yourself

best
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giakara
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try as more mpc's is possible and when you find the best for you , you will feel it the same moment .
The 3C is a good point to start.

Regards
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like the 3E doesn't work for you. Not a shock since it's pretty specialized. If you feel the need for something shallower than your 3C there are bound to be more moderate options. I know one guy that gets some advantage upstairs going to a 3D. I hesitate to recommend the Yamaha 14B4 since it feels so similar to the Bach 3C I played.

More fundamentally, in order to get anything resembling good mouthpiece advise you need to share specific issues and what it is you hope to achieve.
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AmericanTrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a little late, but I'm a big fan of finding what's right for you. That could change as you keep playing too. Trying to find mouthpiece advice on what works for other people may not always work best for you and the music you're trying to create. I prefer v-cup mouthpieces for instance. Another guy I work with says he can't stand playing on a v-cup. There are so many different mouthpieces and combinations out there, so go with what you like.
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheap options in the 3C range:

Curry 3C, Shilke 14B, Yamaha Shew Jazz, Bach 3C, Yamaha 14B4
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In general, use the equipment that most effectively achieves the sound you expect to hear. Everyone is different. You know you better than anyone else.
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TMT
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a specific and very small range of depths that will work for anybody given how much lip they naturally put into the cup. This is why some people can play fat Double G's on a Bach 1 or 1X while other people thrive with a dented dime. Shallow and deep is all relative to what works for you (from what I can see). For me "normal" is 1/32 deeper than a normal 1.5C and shallow IS a typical 1.5C. Anything shallower and it actually kills my range and prevents my lips from vibrating naturally. Never knew this in college (and wish I had). Same with rim, "comfortable" is only comfortable to a certain configuration of teeth behind the lip. Never believe somebody who says "this is a comfortable rim" or that "it's not the mouthpiece, it's you". If shallow cups and (relatively) round rims shut you down as they do me, that is YOUR truth. Now if a mouthpiece produces such an incredibly perfect sound that it's worth starting from the ground up, well that's another story, but in cases like that success is dubious at best, and it's worth considering that maybe it's not the mouthpiece sounding good, but rather it's the fact that you have to put 110% in to be able to play it at all and THAT'S what is making you sound on fire.

ALL mouthpieces are "specialized" but not in the way that appears to be common knowledge. Specialized to a certain type of player, and within that subset to the type of music the player is playing.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try a Curry 3C. on trumpet. I used to play a Bach 3C and the Curry has a much better sound as well as helping my endurance. If you find that you like the Curry on trumpet, buy a Curry 3BBC. mouthpiece for your cornets. Same rim and diameter as the Curry 3C. trumpet piece, but much deeper and with a larger throat - just the thing for cornets.
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Rompson
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets talk about why a player might struggle with the 3e vs. the 3c other than the shallowness of the cup.

1. The rim of the 3e has a much higher alpha angle as shown at this website:
http://users.actrix.co.nz/mcamilleri/MpAlpha.htm
A mouthpiece with such a high alpha angle will more than likely not work for most players and will affect articulation, range, and many other aspects of playing.

2. A more shallow cup adds up-front resistance. This can be benefcial, but if you have a trumpet that "closes up" as you ascend and adds more resistance of its own, it can stop your lips from vibrating.

A more shallow mouthpiece can be a very useful tool to have in your back pocket. For me, having mouthpieces that
a. have a shallower cup that standard
b. share the same rim as my normal mouthpiece
c. have a slightly bigger throat and/or backbore to keep the same feel as my normal mouthpece

are worth the investment.
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Bloo42
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally - I usually tend to go deep, but this is all about the player. I play on the Bach 5MV, but I've heard players who struggle to get a tone on something as deep as a 3B. It's all about you and what plays best for you.
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharkbaitboi wrote:
Play your 3C’s. Ditch the 3E, that is what i would consider a very specialized mouthpiece. It is super shallow and probably not what you want in terms of having stylistic flexibility

+1. After decades of playing, from elementary school band in the early '70's until now, I still play a 3C, albeit at this point with a slightly tighter backbore to help me manage breath these decades later.

Until you get to college and decide you want to pursue trumpet beyond school, and get a professor that may make a suggestion of modification to better suit your embouchure at that point, stick with your 3C.
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