3rd-valve slide too loose - affecting tone?

[Turkle]

Hi, all. On my Yamaha 8310z, the 3rd-valve slide has always been pretty stable. I had it in for a tune-up from a tech I don't normally use (not a good idea) and the 3rd-valve slide is now so loose that if I'm holding the horn with one hand the slide will drop down, which is super-annoying for using plunger mute, which I do quite often. Furthermore, it is so loose that it buzzes on certain pitches, quite loudly at times, if I don't have my finger in the ring.

So that's all annoying. But I think that it may have ruined the response in the low register. Am I imagining this? Surprisingly, the high register on this horn is better than it's ever been. But the low register notes don't seem to slot at all any more... I get a thin and wimpy tone and they aren't in tune.

It's always hard to tell if this sort of thing is my imagination or not. What do you think - can a looser 3rd-valve slide ruin response in the low register?

Thanks!
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Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.

[Dale Proctor]

If it is extremely loose and buzzes, then it's probably leaking, too. Try some thicker grease on it, but not so thick it doesn't move easily. If that doesn't work, a good tech can expand the inner slides a tiny bit to make the fit better.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[cheiden]

I'm a fan of having the 1st and 3rd slides move very easily. I've occasionally wanted for a solution when using a plunger but found that hasn't been a major issue. I abandoned slide grease a while back and now prefer Bach rotor oil. At no point do I perceive that the slides leak with the extra thin lubricant. And I've done this with more than one horn. So just because the slides can move quickly doesn't in and of itself guarantee that they are poorly fit.

In your case I would definitely clean the slides well and reapply the slide treatment of your choice. If you still perceive buzzing, leaking or slotting issues then, by all means, find out when the offending tech did to the horn and/or get the horn to a tech you trust.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[derekthor]

Does the water key on the third slide seal completely? That could explain the response issues in the lower register.

[TKSop]

Have you tried compression-testing it?

If you remove the second-valve slide, then press down valves 2+3 and blow (covering the ports on the 2nd slide and holding the third slide shut)... you should see some bubbling if there's a compression issue with the slide.

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
All good things to check on already mentioned thoughts. My thinking is, hat when you had it in for some maintenance, the new guy, one, overly lapped the slide for easier operation or two, aligned the slide to near perfection, whereas before was out of alignment. Either way check for air leaks on the spit valve if it has one, or a leaky 3rd valve.
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Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

[yourbrass]

Also check the tightness of the waterkey screws. If they were taken apart and then reassembled, the tightness may not be the best place for the horn to resonate. I say this because you mentioned a change in response.

I had an old Bach I finished working on today and had my 1/4" socket wrench on the waterkey screw, trying various tightnesses. It's easy to tell when you find a good spot.
-Lionel
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"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[dssheller]

I own a Yamaha 6310z and recently came across the same issue after having work done at a new shop. To remedy the issue, I cleaned the horn myself and greased the slides with normal slide grease and added a bit of water so it wouldn't hold so tight.

I had the buzzing issue with my 1st-valve slide if I just happened to be playing and did not have my thumb in the saddle. Greasing that slide up more also did the trick.

[Turkle]

Thanks, all.

Yourbrass - thanks for the recommendation, it turns out that the 3rd-slide waterkey screw was really jammed on there tight. Loosening it a bit helped, but did not eliminate the problem.

I'll have to take it in to the shop to get this fixed the next time I get some free time...
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Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.

[shofarguy]

It's been nearly ten years, but my Benge 5X had its 3rd slide get so loose that it bubbled when I played and fell to the bottom of its travel as soon as I put it on a stand or, like you said, tried to play one-handed.

The 2nd valve slide was so loose I had to hold it in with my left meddle finger whenever I played, or it might blow off at any time.

The horn had super loose slots and mushy response. It also had fuzzy tone in the lower register.

I had Kanstul refit the slides and rebuild the valves, which were also worn. The horn played better than I remember it ever playing since new.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[ryanmuckenfuss]

maybe take a hair tie and loop it around the 1st and 3rd valve slide rings to hold it flush, also you could get o-rings like are found on a jupiter trumpet, or thicker grease