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bassguy Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016 Posts: 336
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:37 pm Post subject: Smaller diameter mouthpiece to extend range on flugelhorns |
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It's almost a given in this sight that inner rim diameter should be a fixed entity like a shoo size, and that the cup depth may vary accotding to desired range extension (shallow) or desired darkness of timbre (depth). But for example, what if a playerv gets great range extention on his trumpet using a shallow Yammy 17B trumpet mpc (17.3 mm). If range extention on his flugelhorn is as much a priority, as well as a dark sound only a deep mouthpiece can give, can it be desirable to go down to a smaller diameter flugelhorn mouthpiece, say a Curry 3FL flugelhorn mouthpiece @ 16.9 mm inner rim, instead of the larger Curry 1FL @ 17.22 mm, the counterpart to the 17.3 trumpet mouthpiece in diameter
In other words, shouldn't over all volume consideratons possibly trump diameter as a be all, end all factor? I'm prone to looking at this wholistically from an air resistant point of view. One favorite flugelhorn mouthpiece of mine is the Yamaha 11F4. It's cornet counterpart is an 11E4 which I percieve as smallee & seems constrained on the smaller Pocket trumpet I play, & that's to the extent thaty lips won't vibrate freely in the lowest register. (Pinching the sound!) On that smaller trumpet the larger 13E4 feels less constrained. A 16.7 mm, it's .26 mm larger in diameter t(& with a real V shape) compared to my 11F4 & 11E4 pieces (16.24mm)
Last edited by bassguy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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In my experience narrowing the diameter of the cup doesn't affect range to any significant degree (nor does reducing the volume of the cup). Range is a product of proper fundamentals. There are no magic mouthpieces. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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bassguy Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016 Posts: 336
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | In my experience narrowing the diameter of the cup doesn't affect range to any significant degree (nor does reducing the volume of the cup). Range is a product of proper fundamentals. There are no magic mouthpieces. |
OK how about endurance & range. Won't you concede that one can play really high after warming up, & will poop out
more quickly using a larger volume mouthpiece? |
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Sharkbaitboi Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2018 Posts: 104 Location: Antarctica Symphony
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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bassguy wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: | In my experience narrowing the diameter of the cup doesn't affect range to any significant degree (nor does reducing the volume of the cup). Range is a product of proper fundamentals. There are no magic mouthpieces. |
OK how about endurance & range. Won't you concede that one can play really high after warming up, & will poop out
more quickly using a larger volume mouthpiece? |
I think the throat and backbore have more to do with it. 1C is fine |
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bassguy Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2016 Posts: 336
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | In my experience narrowing the diameter of the cup doesn't affect range to any significant degree (nor does reducing the volume of the cup). Range is a product of proper fundamentals. There are no magic mouthpieces. |
So if depth & cup diameter are irrelevant, can you hit your absolutd highest notes using a Flip Oaks Extreme Flugelhorn Mouthpiece (specs @7.69 diameter, Depth 1 1/4 inches, throat width 1/4 of an inch |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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I appreciate that some players can go smaller or shallower and get some help upstairs on the Bb, C or picc. I haven't experimented enough to know but I'd be surprised if that were true on the flugel just because the blow is so different.
On the other side of the equation, if you wander too far from a suitable diameter, cup and drill/bore then things can get quite a bit harder. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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smaller diameter does not make high notes easier, unless you're playing on something inefficient. I have a few mouthpieces that are very similar except for the diameter, and the narrower ones just make it harder to get a decent sound, and to let the lip vibrate properly. You need to find the one that fits YOU. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: |
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If i play on a 1 1/2 C, i'll struggle for the upper register.
I play upsized ID mpcs from Marcinkiewicz Ingram (ID between Bach 10 1/2 & 10 3/4)
I can play til high B (below Double C) on my flug mpc based on Bobby Shew's (very deep, open throat & bb). I couldn't with a 1 or 3C, or just struggling hard, not for stage !
So, ID does count. The ID that fits you. |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:44 am Post subject: |
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I think it depends what you're really looking for.
If you're looking to add notes to the top, then changing diameter (or cup depth or shape for that matter) isn't going to help - you need dedicated and intelligent practice (and ideally a good teacher).
If you're looking for more endurance on the upper register you already have then it might help a bit... but you'll have to practice to acclimate to the new piece and that will take longer because of the change in ID - it may be that spending practice time on acclimating to a different ID isn't necessary and/or worth it (when that amount of practice time might give you what you need on the larger piece).
Remember, there are a lot of people who do everything superbly using only one ID... and there are also a lot of people who get excellent results using a variety of different ID's, rim shapes, brands (etc).
I don't subscribe to the "shoe-size" analogy - I did in the past, but these days I tend to think that it's a question of comfort and familiarity...
Many/most players have put in a lot more practice time in on equipment of one rough size and then find it uncomfortable to switch (I used to be one of these), old habits die hard as they say!
With diligent practice and realistic expectations of progress, though, this sense of being locked-in to one immutable size bracket fades away... at this point, I can (and have) played on sizes ranging from a Bach 1C to a Bach 20C - but for consistency it makes sense not to bounce around too much (so I don't). The best compromise (for me) lies towards the smaller end of that scale, but I rarely have time to practice more than an hour or so each evening (that "best compromise" might be significantly different for someone with 4+ hours a day to practice). |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Just to precise, i play on only one ID, the same for all my mpcs |
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feedback@stomvi-usa Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2012 Posts: 433 Location: Newhall California
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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bassguy wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: | In my experience narrowing the diameter of the cup doesn't affect range to any significant degree (nor does reducing the volume of the cup). Range is a product of proper fundamentals. There are no magic mouthpieces. |
So if depth & cup diameter are irrelevant, can you hit your absolutd highest notes using a Flip Oaks Extreme Flugelhorn Mouthpiece (specs @7.69 diameter, Depth 1 1/4 inches, throat width 1/4 of an inch |
I have no doubt whatsoever that I can hit my highest notes on virtually any mouthpiece whether it be trumpet, cornet or flugelhorn. The differences will be in the tonal quality, stability and consistency, not in the range itself.
Bill Watrous, on his trombone, could play the pitch equivalent to a trumpeter's double G (4 ledger lines above the staff) and even higher and he could do it consistently, in tune and with a full sound on his trombone mouthpiece. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3777 Location: AL
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:17 am Post subject: |
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The issue for me was the QUALITY of the sound above the staff on a larger flugel mouthpiece (not that I wanted to play up there a lot). I experienced a big difference from my Curry 3FL to my Shew Flugel piece. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:33 am Post subject: extended range on flugelhorns |
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A few gear tuning related things that (for me) facilitate ease of flugelhorn upper range.
Tuning pipe: Just as many of you may have discovered experimenting with trumpet tuning slides, no two are identical. I have compared flug tuning pipes from the same model of horn and discovered significant differences. In fact, I just sold a 631 to one of the guys here on TH and I anticipate he's going to be quite thrilled with the clarity and ease upstairs, exceptional tuning pipe on that horn.
Valve alignment: Do it!
Valve washer pad material: I use sheet goods by Kraus Music Products to stamp my washers from, a fairly firm, dense material that definitely affects resonance/feedback to the chops. While traditional felt washers somewhat dampen and provide more of a fluffy/pillowy sound, the denser synthetic material provides crisper/cleaner results that (I find) help in the upper range. The affect can be compared to the dif between nylon and brass valve guides.
Fresh water key corks:Do it!
Finally, I'm sure some of you will think this stuff is all poo-poo, but it's probably because you haven't found the correct size tin foil hat. I'm not going to apologize for being properly fitted. lol
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:46 am Post subject: Re: extended range on flugelhorns |
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_Daff wrote: | Finally, I'm sure some of you will think this stuff is all poo-poo, but it's probably because you haven't found the correct size tin foil hat. I'm not going to apologize for being properly fitted. lol
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Ha! But yes, I have personally experienced the difference small changes in material can make on a horn. I was actually shocked at the difference it made in the upper register of one of my trumpets. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Smaller diameter mouthpiece to extend range on flugelhor |
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bassguy wrote: | It's almost a given in this sight that inner rim diameter should be a fixed entity like a shoo size, and that the cup depth may vary accotding to desired range extension (shallow) or desired darkness of timbre (depth). But for example, what if a playerv gets great range extention on his trumpet using a shallow Yammy 17B trumpet mpc (17.3 mm). If range extention on his flugelhorn is as much a priority, as well as a dark sound only a deep mouthpiece can give, can it be desirable to go down to a smaller diameter flugelhorn mouthpiece, say a Curry 3FL flugelhorn mouthpiece @ 16.9 mm inner rim, instead of the larger Curry 1FL @ 17.22 mm, the counterpart to the 17.3 trumpet mouthpiece in diameter
In other words, shouldn't over all volume consideratons possibly trump diameter as a be all, end all factor? I'm prone to looking at this wholistically from an air resistant point of view. One favorite flugelhorn mouthpiece of mine is the Yamaha 11F4. It's cornet counterpart is an 11E4 which I percieve as smallee & seems constrained on the smaller Pocket trumpet I play, & that's to the extent thaty lips won't vibrate freely in the lowest register. (Pinching the sound!) On that smaller trumpet the larger 13E4 feels less constrained. A 16.7 mm, it's .26 mm larger in diameter t(& with a real V shape) compared to my 11F4 & 11E4 pieces (16.24mm) |
You could try a smaller diameter, however a cornet mouthpiece in same inner rim diameter dimension would be my first choice.
That 17B trumpet mouthpiece seems entirely too large for me. Unless you never play above the staff. This however is a forum on high range so I assume that you do want better range. In my opinion? You seem to be putting cart before horse here. The usual choice is to change cup depths before rim dimensions. Puts the chops in less confusion. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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I know “upper register” doesn’t mean the same thing to everyone, but is “upper register” playing that much of a concern on a FLUGELHORN?
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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