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Bach 37


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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the problem still exists I posit that the tech was unable to find the root cause.

I remember the previous thread because some of my suggestions didn’t help.

Please note that I have no issues with this thread. My intent was to provide more info for those who might be interested.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
If memory serves, there is a long thread from a few years ago discussing Lou’s odyssey attempting to resolve this issue. I seem to remember this included a trip to at least one tech.

----------------------------------
I hope the tech carefully -
1) measured and examined the piston for straightness and roundness - and corrected if necessary.
2) used the proper sized case mandrel to detect & correct any case problem.

I do hobbyist metal work (small home metal lathe), so I have some experience with precision sizing - and how small outside forces can affect things.
With the close fit tolerance between the valve case and the piston, small pressure on the valve case could easily distort the case enough to cause sticking. e.g. pressure on the valve slide (in any direction) could be enough, because the length of the slide would act as a lever.

For example - before resuming trumpet, I played French horn for many years. One of the valve key lever-arms (the thumb valve on a double horn) became slightly bent. I believe this was due to some slight pressure on the lever from the padding in the case.

Jay


Hi Jay

Thanks very much. No, what you suggest has not been done, but please let's not discuss in anymore detail, why not, or anything about what previous techs have done or not done. I am starting again!

Thanks very much again however for your kind suggestions.

Best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
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Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Hi

I've just spent an hour playing my Bach at home. I've been playing reasonably technical classical repertoire, semi-quaver runs etc. and the 1st valve didn't stick at all. Admittedly I was alternating with cornet, as I have rehearsals on both coming up in the next few days, but I played whole pieces on each.

I'll have to do the same tomorrow, but only playing this trumpet, to see if alternating with cornet was the reason that the sticking didn't start.

Surely it isn't a case of this trumpet only being good for a concert lol, providing the MD decides to talk for ages between each number

All the best

Lou


Hi

Re. my post above, I've had to put off practising at home tonight on just my Bach 37, as something has come up and I've got to go out. All ok, and I've played for at least an hour everyday so far this year, so a night off won't do me any harm lol.

With loads of rehearsals coming up (to which none of them I'm taking my Bach), it'll be next weekend probably before I have a chance to see whether the 1st valve will start sticking if I don't alternate my Bach 37 with my cornet in the same home practice session.

Whatever happens, I've decided how I'm going to proceed. I'm going to treat my Bach 37 like a new trumpet, wiping down the valves and valve casings before oiling everyday, and wait and see if the 1st valve beds in ok with regular playing.

If it doesn't, it will go to Leigh at Eclipse at the earliest opportunity I have to get it there.

Thanks very much everyone for all your kind assistance and suggestions.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I tried my Bach again today, this time doing some Jazz playing at home with my husband to backing tracks. I just played the melody and he did the improvised solos. Whilst I was playing the melody, he improvised under me.

I've already done a long community light orchestra rehearsal today, overtures and show tunes, so playing most of the time, so probably didn't quite have my normal endurance.

I started with my Xeno II and tired quicker than I would like. My husband is admittedly a very powerful Jazz alto saxophonist, and I struggled to project sufficiently.

I then switched to my Bach 37, and although it is not my normal way of playing, and it was just an experiment, I could easily project over him, and since I wasn't having to work so hard to project, I didn't tire so easily.

If I was comparing my Xeno II with a big commercial trumpet, I'd understand it, but a Bach 37? I just can't understand why.

I've talked to my husband about this situation, and although I could probably technically afford a Bach 190/37, we are just not sure whether we can justify it without trading in or selling something. I like my Xeno II for classical playing, and oh yeah I haven't yet mentioned, the 1st valve of my Bach was hanging again, preventing me from either trading it in or selling it.

If it doesn't bed in soon, I'll take it to Leigh at Eclipse and see if it is a simple fix.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Uberopa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou,
If your Bach 37 trumpet was a Yamaha I would suspect the trigger. It is possible in my experience with the Yamahas to bind the valves with too tight a hand grip. The Bachs won't do that. As a last dich attempt for that first valve I would try the chem clean of 2/3 Dawn detergent with 1/3 white vinegar soak for twenty minutes. This worked well for my old Benge with very gummy vaves.Cheap and cheerful. Save the malt vinegar for the fish and chips.Best of British luck.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
......
If it doesn't bed in soon, I'll take it to Leigh at Eclipse and see if it is a simple fix.

All the best

Lou


Please don’t take this as a criticism, it’s not intended as such, just an observation.

We all have different levels of patience, and we all have different economic realities, but how many years have you dealt with this with this particular Bach? I’ve not followed everything you have written over the past year or two, but by now I would either take or ship it to someone competent to correct it, or sell it and disclose the problem to the prospective buyer, or just put it in the case and forget it. Unless I have missed something here, it’s FIXABLE. Pretty much any valve can be rebuilt, if that’s what is needed here. Personally, if it was my horn I would have zero patience left waiting for it to “bed in.”

You seem to be an enthusiastic and active player, it just seems unnecessary to me that you should put up with a problem like this. I would say the exact same thing to one of my students, and obviously you are beyond that level.

Get it fixed Lou!😎

Brad
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
......
If it doesn't bed in soon, I'll take it to Leigh at Eclipse and see if it is a simple fix.

All the best

Lou


Please don’t take this as a criticism, it’s not intended as such, just an observation.

Hi Brad

No worries, I understand, thanks.


We all have different levels of patience, and we all have different economic realities, but how many years have you dealt with this with this particular Bach?

I reckon that I have far far too much patience. How many years have I dealt with this Bach? Every now again I have another try, so only and deal with it with a month or so at a time, but since I bought my Xeno II towards the end of 2015 owing to how unreliable my Bach had gotten, it has been at least 3 years, and more likely 5.

I’ve not followed everything you have written over the past year or two, but by now I would either take or ship it to someone competent to correct it, or sell it and disclose the problem to the prospective buyer, or just put it in the case and forget it. Unless I have missed something here, it’s FIXABLE. Pretty much any valve can be rebuilt, if that’s what is needed here. Personally, if it was my horn I would have zero patience left waiting for it to “bed in.”

Thanks very much.

You seem to be an enthusiastic and active player, it just seems unnecessary to me that you should put up with a problem like this. I would say the exact same thing to one of my students, and obviously you are beyond that level.

Enthusiastic and active definitely, beyond the level of your students, maybe not, other than most likely in age lol.

Get it fixed Lou!😎

Brad

Thanks very much again.

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,

I'm going to get flamed here, I know, but every Yamaha trumpet I've ever played just didn't project well. The sound just doesn't resonate. I don't know if it's because they form their bells by pneumatic expansion rather than by spinning them or what, but I've always been disappointed by them.

Also, I've heard some fairly well regarded players (professors, even) play their own Yamaha side by side with a different make and the other horns sound better.

I've heard several people, who know him more than I, say that Wayne Bergeron sounds better on his Kanstul than his Yamaha, but I cannot attest to that.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree and it's a shame that all that advanced players, yes even professors, failed to develop their ear enough to find out themselves and that as a result now even high end symphonic orchestras are polluted with the dead sound of the Yamaha Artist series. And a Kanstul horn superior to another horn? Shofarguy won't stop to surprise me.
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Last edited by delano on Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited
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Last edited by delano on Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
shofarguy:
I'm going to get flamed here, I know, but every Yamaha trumpet I've ever played just didn't project well. The sound just doesn't resonate

Some things seem to be personal, some others obviously very personal. I found a statement about Yamaha trumpets by the moderator of Trumpetmaster (under the name of Rowuk) who seems to be quite a qualified player with a great knowledge of instruments and I hope I am allowed to use it here:

Rowuk:
Starting with the Xeno line, Yamaha redefined the trumpet sound. It does not have the core of a Bach or the glass clear Schilke sound. They discovered a very special brilliance that is not too bright. The Xenos resonate like crazy.

(source: http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads/contrasting-the-shews-with-xenos.91261/#post-935046)



I know nothing about Bach 37s, I´m an amateur (but have played in bands since 1958). So much for that. I bought myself a (virtually unused) Bach 1B LT190 Commercial - which was too easy for me but in the hands of a very qualified pro sounded fantastic, much bigger projection than his Artisan; with me at the helm great sound, though somewhat lacking the elusive concept core. Then I found, choosing amongst other horns, eg. the Bergeron LA, my Yamaha 6335 RC. Possibly not the totality in projection as the LA but warmer, more distinct - finding it equally suited to big band work as well as classical work.
Conclusion? The "me" factor I think. As I see it you´ll have to put the player into the equation - I seem to "resonate" perfectly with this horn; someone else might resonate with another (although I´ve come across horns that remain dead irrespective of who´s playing).
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Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
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King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Fudd, you are hopeless. Thanks for ruining my post, I will withdraw it.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Mr. Fudd, you are hopeless. Thanks for ruining my post, I will withdraw it.



??? Is this tongue in cheek. Maybe not, since the post has been deleted, but I'm bewildered.

Anyway, thanks very much everyone for your responses.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Lou,

I'm going to get flamed here, I know, but every Yamaha trumpet I've ever played just didn't project well. The sound just doesn't resonate. I don't know if it's because they form their bells by pneumatic expansion rather than by spinning them or what, but I've always been disappointed by them.

Also, I've heard some fairly well regarded players (professors, even) play their own Yamaha side by side with a different make and the other horns sound better.
I've heard several people, who know him more than I, say that Wayne Bergeron sounds better on his Kanstul than his Yamaha,but I cannot attest to that.
Brian, "better" is subjective. I'm not a big fan of Yamaha Bb and C trumpets but I have heard a few (in person) where the presence, projection and quality (subjective) of sound was outstanding. Brian Lynch on his 8335NY (1st edition) comes to mind.

Last edited by Ed Kennedy on Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Mr. Fudd, you are hopeless. Thanks for ruining my post, I will withdraw it.


Delano, lighten up. Everybody has opinions (and other things too! .
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Lou,

Hi Shofarguy

I'm going to get flamed here, I know, but every Yamaha trumpet I've ever played just didn't project well. The sound just doesn't resonate. I don't know if it's because they form their bells by pneumatic expansion rather than by spinning them or what, but I've always been disappointed by them.

Thanks very much.

Also, I've heard some fairly well regarded players (professors, even) play their own Yamaha side by side with a different make and the other horns sound better.

I've heard several people, who know him more than I, say that Wayne Bergeron sounds better on his Kanstul than his Yamaha, but I cannot attest to that.

Thanks very much for the above. I've read this before about Wayne Bergeron, but I have no personal experience. No offence to Wayne Bergeron or his considerable talents, but he doesn't really represent the type of music I listen to, or the type of player I am or want to be. What I mean by this, is simply that I don't know Wayne Bergeron's playing well enough to know how his sound differs on different trumpets.

Anyway, getting back on topic, I like my sound on my Yamaha. I like most things about it. What I don't like about it, is that the best analogy I can find, is that it is like buying a new pair of shoes in a slightly firm leather. Until the leather gives a little, they feel a little stiff and inflexible.

My Yamaha trumpet is like this. My first trumpet, a Yamaha YTR-2320E was like this, hence why I kept my Boosey and Hawkes Oxford and sold the Yamaha. The Yamaha YTR-6335HGII was better in this regard, or at least I seem to remember it being.

I thought that it was a lack of flexibility as I mainly noticed it on swing and big band repertoire, but now I think that it is louder dynamics, as I noticed it on completely straight repertoire yesterday. I was playing a phrase of only crotchets but loudly and I felt like I was fighting the horn. I don't mean that it was stuffy or wouldn't take the air, but rigid and harder to light up.

Maybe it is something to do with the bell, but my Yamaha Xeno cornet is not like this at all. Admittedly it has a 11.90mm bore and is a modern large bore cornet, but it doesn't blow like a drain pipe. It may not in my opinion have quite the tone colour of the Besson Sovereign, but to me it is a big, broad power house of a cornet, wonderfully responsive with great flexibility, yet responds well in quiet dynamics and can sound very sweet.

Like my Yamaha Xeno II trumpet, my Xeno cornet has a yellow brass bell and is lacquer. It is however of course a cornet and cornets don't respond the same to trumpets.

Going back to my Xeno II trumpet, unlike my previous Yamaha 6335HGII which was a bit vanilla sounding, it is very easy to get a lot of tone colours out of it, and it responds very well to changes in articulations and dynamics, it just doesn't light up as well as my Bach. That is not to say that I can't play it loudly only that it doesn't light up like I'd like.


Thanks again

Best wishes

Lou


_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
delano wrote:
shofarguy:
I'm going to get flamed here, I know, but every Yamaha trumpet I've ever played just didn't project well. The sound just doesn't resonate

Some things seem to be personal, some others obviously very personal. I found a statement about Yamaha trumpets by the moderator of Trumpetmaster (under the name of Rowuk) who seems to be quite a qualified player with a great knowledge of instruments and I hope I am allowed to use it here:

Rowuk:
Starting with the Xeno line, Yamaha redefined the trumpet sound. It does not have the core of a Bach or the glass clear Schilke sound. They discovered a very special brilliance that is not too bright. The Xenos resonate like crazy.

(source: http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads/contrasting-the-shews-with-xenos.91261/#post-935046)


Hi Seymor

I know nothing about Bach 37s, I´m an amateur (but have played in bands since 1958). So much for that. I bought myself a (virtually unused) Bach 1B LT190 Commercial - which was too easy for me

I guess by this, you mean that it was too free blowing for your taste, and you prefer a little more resistance to blow against. Fair enough.

but in the hands of a very qualified pro sounded fantastic, much bigger projection than his Artisan; with me at the helm great sound, though somewhat lacking the elusive concept core. Then I found, choosing amongst other horns, eg. the Bergeron LA, my Yamaha 6335 RC. Possibly not the totality in projection as the LA but warmer, more distinct - finding it equally suited to big band work as well as classical work.
Conclusion? The "me" factor I think. As I see it you´ll have to put the player into the equation - I seem to "resonate" perfectly with this horn; someone else might resonate with another (although I´ve come across horns that remain dead irrespective of who´s playing).

Thanks very much for all the above. I totally understand and agree.

Best wishes

Lou


_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Mr. Fudd, you are hopeless. Thanks for ruining my post, I will withdraw it.


Hi delano

If the following is the post you have withdrawn, then I just can't see the link between it and Seymor's post.

delano wrote:
shofarguy:
I'm going to get flamed here, I know, but every Yamaha trumpet I've ever played just didn't project well. The sound just doesn't resonate

Some things seem to be personal, some others obviously very personal. I found a statement about Yamaha trumpets by the moderator of Trumpetmaster (under the name of Rowuk) who seems to be quite a qualified player with a great knowledge of instruments and I hope I am allowed to use it here:

Rowuk:
Starting with the Xeno line, Yamaha redefined the trumpet sound. It does not have the core of a Bach or the glass clear Schilke sound. They discovered a very special brilliance that is not too bright. The Xenos resonate like crazy.

(source: http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads/contrasting-the-shews-with-xenos.91261/#post-935046)


Anyway, if this is the post you have deleted, which exists owing to it having been already quoted, then regarding Rowuk's opinion, fair enough, but this is not my personal opinion of my Xeno II in comparison to my particular 1979 Bach 37. I can't help thinking that it is a bit stiff with regards to it lighting up when pushed, I just find it this way. I find it plenty enough responsive in all other regards.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
delano wrote:
Mr. Fudd, you are hopeless. Thanks for ruining my post, I will withdraw it.



??? Is this tongue in cheek. Maybe not, since the post has been deleted, but I'm bewildered.

Anyway, thanks very much everyone for your responses.

All the best

Lou


+1, or should I say +???

Brad
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Mr. Fudd, you are hopeless. Thanks for ruining my post, I will withdraw it.



Dear Delano! I didn´t mean to, I mean I´m not mean.
Next time it´s your turn!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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