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amzi Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2010 Posts: 143 Location: NorCal
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: What will you do when they come for your mouthpiece? |
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A San Francisco Bay Area environmental group has filed suit against 12 mouthpiece manufacturers and two mouthpiece retailers. I haven't read the names of the manufacturers, but the retailers are Union Square Music and Guitar Center. The stated goal of of the environmental group is to remove all traces of lead from the environment. Being a citizen of California I suspect that will lead to companies simply not selling brass instrument mouthpieces in California, or companies producing California Only mouthpieces, or companies only selling mouthpieces in California that are made of materials that contain absolutely no lead. All of this will result in higher prices for California brass musicians. And what will they come after next--raw brass instruments, silver plated instruments, brass instruments with worn lacquer? Indeed, will lacquered horns escape unscathed? Maybe lacquered horns will have to be tested by the state (at the manufacturers expense) to verify that the lacquer/epoxy coating that is used effectively eliminates lead leaching when held. I know this will likely have little impact on anyone other than California musicians, but it is aggravating. And, with what the state has already done to mess up firearms and ammunition; cars, trucks and fuel; boat motors; etc., etc., etc.
As something of an aside you should probably be aware that every mouthpiece tested contained such minute traces of lead that according to industry standards the brass is considered lead free. _________________ Recording Olds Trumpet
Bach Stradivarius ML 37
Bach Stradivarius CML 236
Bach Stradivarius Bass Trumpet
Holton T171 Alto Trumpet
Yamaha 610 Eb/D Trumpet
Kanstul 920 Picc. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6192
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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At current prices of silver, perhaps making everything from silver-copper alloy (e.g., shibuichi) could become an alternative. |
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amzi Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2010 Posts: 143 Location: NorCal
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Some additional information from The Center for Environmental Health. Apparently two of the mouthpieces tested were saxophone mouthipeces, the JodyJazz and the Theo Wannes. Here are the trumpet mouthpiece manufacturers that they have filed suit against Bach, Schilke, Warburton, Denis Wick, Curry, Faxx, S.E. Shires, Parduba, Assymetric, and Best Brass. _________________ Recording Olds Trumpet
Bach Stradivarius ML 37
Bach Stradivarius CML 236
Bach Stradivarius Bass Trumpet
Holton T171 Alto Trumpet
Yamaha 610 Eb/D Trumpet
Kanstul 920 Picc. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8336 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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This might annoy a few people, but why am I not surprised this is happening in California?
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Croquethed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 615 Location: Oakville, CT
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Nuisance suit. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone is hating on California for its environmental policies. I'm nearly 60 and remember when the smog would blot out the sun. I do agree that some of the advocates get overzealous from time to time but in general life is way better now. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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pinstriper Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2013 Posts: 340 Location: Portlandia, OR
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Croquethed wrote: | Nuisance suit. |
Would that this was only a nuisance of well meaning dingbats.
This is a shakedown for money, at the expense of reality. _________________ ~'77 DEG Dynasty II Soprano Bugle in G
'13 Chinese POS "Hawk" branded Flugel
'59 Olds Ambassador Cornet
'51 Olds Super
'69 Olds Studio
'40 Olds Special Cornet, Military Issued |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I'm buying stock in Kelly! |
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 630 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I would swallow it to prove there is no danger! |
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JohnD Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 182 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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a lead mouthpiece is something different....go tell 'em...whatever they smoke, they should take less.... _________________ trumpet it ! |
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TrumpetNerd2357 New Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2019 Posts: 6 Location: TX, USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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The CEH article about the issue recommends stainless steel pieces. I have tried one top and two backbores made of SS, but found them a little lackluster. They feel about the same (some notable differences, but not enough to impact playability), but the sound is something entirely different (if everyone switched to SS today, our definition of a “good sound” would definitely have to change) |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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How does the lead get through the silver plating? _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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amzi Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2010 Posts: 143 Location: NorCal
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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They soaked a mouthpiece in water then tested the water and found that it contained lead. Kind of sketchy on the details of the exact process. _________________ Recording Olds Trumpet
Bach Stradivarius ML 37
Bach Stradivarius CML 236
Bach Stradivarius Bass Trumpet
Holton T171 Alto Trumpet
Yamaha 610 Eb/D Trumpet
Kanstul 920 Picc. |
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Tivolian Regular Member
Joined: 22 May 2018 Posts: 84 Location: Upstate New York
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:41 am Post subject: |
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amzi wrote: | They soaked a mouthpiece in water then tested the water and found that it contained lead. Kind of sketchy on the details of the exact process. |
So, you're not concerned about the possibility of some degree of lead toxicity from this? Think about some fourth-grader who starts playing trumpet, plays every day for years, has other lead exposures (e.g. from lead paint residue, air pollution), and suffers some brain damage as a result. I'm not saying that exposure from a mouthpiece will lead to toxicity (I have no idea how much lead one might imbibe nor how that compares to toxic levels), but it seems just common sense to regulate any identified sources. Lead exposures are much higher in lower income communities where regulations are relaxed or not affordable. I'd urge you to be a little slower to conclude that these concerns have no merit. _________________ Tivolian |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:06 am Post subject: |
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No, I am not concerned about lead in mouthpieces.
The person doing this test has released no significant information about her testing procedures. Did she check to see how much lead was in the water before putting the mouthpiece in it?
There are some serious problems with lead toxicity from old plumbing, and to a lesser extent, lead paint. Paint with lead in it has not been available for a few decades. Are there really many places that have not been repainted in that length of time?
Take care,
Marc Speed |
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Tivolian Regular Member
Joined: 22 May 2018 Posts: 84 Location: Upstate New York
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Speed wrote: | No, I am not concerned about lead in mouthpieces.
The person doing this test has released no significant information about her testing procedures. Did she check to see how much lead was in the water before putting the mouthpiece in it?
There are some serious problems with lead toxicity from old plumbing, and to a lesser extent, lead paint. Paint with lead in it has not been available for a few decades. Are there really many places that have not been repainted in that length of time?
Take care,
Marc Speed |
Yes, everywhere, especially in low income neighborhoods. Lead was taken out of gasoline decades ago too, and there's residue all over the place. It sticks around for a long time, and so do exposures.
Sure, it would be great to see the data. Meantime, I hope folks might think about exposures of others besides themselves and not just write this off as frivolous. _________________ Tivolian |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Tivolian wrote: | amzi wrote: | They soaked a mouthpiece in water then tested the water and found that it contained lead. Kind of sketchy on the details of the exact process. |
So, you're not concerned about the possibility of some degree of lead toxicity from this? Think about some fourth-grader who starts playing trumpet, plays every day for years, has other lead exposures (e.g. from lead paint residue, air pollution), and suffers some brain damage as a result. I'm not saying that exposure from a mouthpiece will lead to toxicity (I have no idea how much lead one might imbibe nor how that compares to toxic levels), but it seems just common sense to regulate any identified sources. Lead exposures are much higher in lower income communities where regulations are relaxed or not affordable. I'd urge you to be a little slower to conclude that these concerns have no merit. |
This is exactly what these hype-masters thrive on. "I dont know - SO BAN IT ALL. HURRY!" and "Think of the children". I have been playing for 47 years and remodel old houses. I worry about asbestos, I worry about dioxins from early pesticides, and I worry about a bad back tat blew out trying to use an Aida this Christmas, but not lead in my mouthpiece.
Look at some numbers: Fine crystal glasses and decanters can be between 8 and 24% lead by weight, and the more acidic the liquid placed in them, the more metals will leech. One of the lead compliance tests for beverage containers involves vinegar-level PH liquid for 24 hours. 2500 micrograms/liter is allowed (FDA is reconsidering this as its a bit shocking). Your drinking water is allowed to contain 50 micrograms per liter. The closest any revelation from this testing has come to acknowledging a level is to say "we are talking micrograms". People usually only speak in that way if the number is not very many. And if you can go to the tap right now and pour a glass with 50 micrograms per liter safely, 5 or 10 in how long? maybe 24 hours - they wont say what the soak time was, or the PH, why is that suddenly a catastrophe?
But this is all about hype not science. The media is already all over this declaring mouthpieces are poisoning the kids. And then there is the "I don't know so it must be bad" mentality that is going to leave us with no mouthieces of any decent quality unless someone steps back and says simply "prove it".
Meanwhile, the hypemasters behind this are probably sitting back celebrating with wine in expensive crystal glasses, an acid that wil leech that lead at an alarming rate - but don't expect to hear them cry about that any time soon. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Tivolian wrote: |
Sure, it would be great to see the data. Meantime, I hope folks might think about exposures of others besides themselves and not just write this off as frivolous. |
Call a spade a spade.
My wife and son aren't being poisoned by the lead in my silver plated mouthpieces, nor is anyone else. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Speed wrote: | No, I am not concerned about lead in mouthpieces.
The person doing this test has released no significant information about her testing procedures. Did she check to see how much lead was in the water before putting the mouthpiece in it?
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Its actually 2 different testers "work" merged. (One prompted the action by the greedier other) CEH did the water soak and wont admit PH, time or actual levels. The other, "she", is interviewed in this article:
https://www.webmd.com/special-reports/lead-dangers/20170906/lead-consumer-products
In it, she admits she is "not trying to be scientific". The person who started all this is using a tool designed for detecting lead under layers of paint while doing home inspections. It determines lead in material - presence only. Not accessibility, not concentration, and not the amount that will leech on contact with humans, foodstuffs, etc.
The CEH testing methodology might at least be somewhat valid - but now they need to quantify time, PH and level so that can be compared to acceptable standards.
The part missing in all of this, including my saying water soaks are a valid test, is that IF YOU ARE SUCKING ON THE MOUTHPIECE, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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