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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | It's the seventh degree flatted. In this case, it would be C to Bb. |
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I was confused about that too. At first I didn't recognize the 'b' as meaning 'flatted' because I hadn't seen that notation in the music theory book I use.
And music theory nomenclature sometimes doesn't seem straight forward.
For example, my book (which unfortunately has several misprints) says that a
C7 chord goes from C up to Bb (which is a minor 7th, but it is just 'understood' that way.
And majC7 goes from C to B (which is a major 7th)
A diminished 7th goes from C to A, because the top note of the C7 is lowered 1 half-step.
The term 'diminished major 7th' is not part of the usual terminology.
Trying to learn music theory is more difficult (for me) than reading a chemistry 101 textbook.
Just venting ...
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Who uses the term majC7 ? If it's not designated otherwise, then it automatically defaults to a major chord.
C7 implies a C dominant seven type chord. If the chord is minor, then it's notated C min7. Same for Augmented (C Aug7) and a Diminished chord (C dim7).
If it's a major chord with a major 7 it's notated C Maj7. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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mrhappy Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2018 Posts: 371 Location: Port Jackson, NY
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | It's the seventh degree flatted. In this case, it would be C to Bb. |
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And music theory nomenclature sometimes doesn't seem straight forward.
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That's for sure! Here's generally what I see in my neck of the woods:
C = C Major
C^ (supposed to be a triangle) = C Maj7
C- = C minor
C-7 = C minor 7
C7 = C Dominant 7
C+ = C Aug7
Co (circle is supposed to be up above the 'C') = C dim7
Co (circle would have a slash through it) = C half diminished (aka Cmin7b5) _________________ MH |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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That's the way I first learned but I think it was standardized away from figures/cymbals to more clear text some time ago. Allegedly Jamie Aebersold and a bunch of like minded educators resolved this. I certainly don't think you'd find published music with this nomenclature. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2416 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: How Do YOU Approach Learning Scales?? |
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mrhappy wrote: | So here’s my questions for those of you that are good at this sort of thing:
When attempting to learn a new scale/ passage or whatever, do you…
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Lots of good advice in this thread.
FWIW, I practice about 20 different jazz scales a day, as part of my daily routine. I rotate through all 12 keys, focusing on one key each day. I do all my scales studies from memory.
When learning a new scale or pattern, I probably do some visualization (as the OP suggested). But for me, it's mostly repetition until I can play from memory, play it in all 12 keys, and play variations the scale following certain patterns (there are a few patterns that I apply to most scales I practice, similar to what jhatpro wrote).
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Apologies if this is too simplistic a reply, but starting very very slowly, evenly and deliberately is my recommendation.Over time the process becomes quicker and easier, but you only reach that stage after hours of very diligent work. If you try and rush through them from the start it will take so much longer for the brain/aural/finger connections to build.
All the best |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:36 am Post subject: |
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A great resource is the virtually endless number of online instructionals, most of them for guitar players. Even if you don’t know a Gibson from a Fender you can still learn a lot from sites like this:
https://www.thejazzguitarsite.com/jazz-guitar-lessons/how-to-improvise-over-major-7th-chords _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:45 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani and mrhappy
Thanks for the clarifications about chord & interval notation.
I get quite confused by the way they are notated (and explained) by different sources.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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mrhappy Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2018 Posts: 371 Location: Port Jackson, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:13 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I certainly don't think you'd find published music with this nomenclature. |
Agreed... I was just throwing that out there for the 'down and dirty' crowd! Probably stems from when charts were mostly hand written as more of a shorthand style. _________________ MH |
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mrhappy Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2018 Posts: 371 Location: Port Jackson, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:15 am Post subject: Re: How Do YOU Approach Learning Scales?? |
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TrumpetMD wrote: |
Lots of good advice in this thread.
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Holy Cow YESSS!! Thanks everyone! ![](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ MH |
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mrhappy Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2018 Posts: 371 Location: Port Jackson, NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Hey that's a pretty cool site... right to the point! Thanks for the link Jim! ![](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ MH |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:54 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | kehaulani and mrhappy Thanks for the clarifications about chord & interval notation. I get quite confused by the way they are notated (and explained) by different sources. Jay |
Jay, just to take it one more step.
I originally learned the shorthand notation, (triangles, minus and plus signs, etc.). I have found out over the years that, because there are various notation systems that people only know, that writing out the words (Maj=major, Min=minor) is the clearest way for everyone to understand it.
Or to put it in reverse, C+9. What does that mean? C7 with a sharpened 9th or C augmented with a natural 9th? But if you write it out, it is clear. C Aug9, or C7 +9 if that's what you mean.
Most modern published arrangements now use this system. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:44 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | ... Jay, just to take it one more step. ... |
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Thanks again!
My resent 'foray' into chords and intervals began a few weeks ago when I was practicing Arban's 'Chord of the Dominant Seventh', and was wondering about why they had that title. And whether the goal of the exercises was to teach any theory about 'Dominant Seventh', or were just 'playing exercises'. Years ago when I did take private lessons, I didn't get any instruction about theory or even 'learn the chords' - just play the notes.
I haven't had formal music theory training, only a very little 'self study attempts' from a basic music theory book that I believe was originally published for the British market - and it's got a few errors (I think) - such as sometimes calling a 7-half-step interval a 'major 5th' rather than a 'perfect 5th' (is that ever done?).
The #53 Arban's exercise begins with a Cmajor triad in the first (and last) measure, but then all the following measures are patterns of triads based on Gmajor with F (instead of F#). I found them fine to play, but unclear about what they had to do with Cmajor (other than flowing nicely), what was 'dominant' about the 7th, confused because the 5th of a chord is called the 'dominant', and wondering why/how the 7th of Gmajor (F#) was changed to F.
I'm not asking for (or expecting) a music theory explanation, I just wanted to let you know how I got 'lost in the weeds' ...
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Dominant Seventh is used to refer to any major triad with a flat seventh added, regardless of key.
A G7 chord in C major is composed of scale degrees G (dominant), B, D F (seventh note up from F). The #53 exercise is covering the Dominant 7 chord for C Major. When you play the exercise for Eb, the Dominant 7 chord will be Bb-D-F-Ab. They all follow this pattern.
Keeping in mind that, in your example, the G in a C Major scale is called the dominant (the fifth degree in any major scale is called the dominant, actually), this is a fairly good explanation I found on the Stack Exchange:
"Early on in common practice music the V7 chord construction was frequently encountered (note I mean the dominant seventh of the current key); over time, the name 'dominant seventh' came to be applied to any major triad with a flattened seventh degree, even when you're not dealing with the dominant of the current tonality.
"C7 is, in the most literal sense, the dominant triad, with an added seventh, in the key of F major. One of the most common uses of the dominant, fifth (V), chord is in a perfect cadence, V->I. Although this is done with just triads, including the seventh of the dominant chord reinforces the finality of the cadence. Over time, the designation of these 'dominant seventh' chords expanded to any (major) chord involving the flattened seventh degree." _________________ -Tom Hall-
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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For starters, if you're in the Key of C and you're playing around with a F natural and the chord revolves around G, you are working out on that key's fifth, or dominant degree/chord.
The use of the term Minor 7th interval refers to the type and degree of an interval. Sometimes music has quick and momentary modulations. So, while it may overall be in C major (G Dominant), it might momentarily modulate.
If it goes, i.e. to F Major, then C becomes that key's dominant. In that case, you could suddenly see a C7 to F Maj7, even though the overall key is C Major. The interval of F to E is a Major 7th and the interval of C to Bb (C7) is, therefore, an interval of a Minor seven.
A Dominant seven chord is a major chord with lowered seventh and the chord is based on the Dominant (5th) degree of a key.
The interval of a Minor 7th is an interval with a lowered seventh.
It gets more complicated, LOL.
Revised. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
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Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | The interval of a Dominant 7 is an interval with a lowered seventh. |
I can't think of any music theory context where an interval is labeled "Dominant 7". It's called a minor seventh, or less commonly, an augmented sixth. Intervals are not "dominant". _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
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'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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That is right, that it is a minor seventh but I know a lot of pop and jazz musicians who use the term dominant seven, so I include it because there may be those that want to know what it means.
But you're right in that it is an interval of a Minor 7th and the post has been revised, accordingly. Sorry for any ambiguity. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
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Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | The interval of a Dominant 7 is an interval with a lowered seventh. |
mm55 wrote: | I can't think of any music theory context where an interval is labeled "Dominant 7". It's called a minor seventh, or less commonly, an augmented sixth. Intervals are not "dominant". |
What he said.
C7: C (root), E (major 3rd), G (Perfect 5th), Bb (minor 7th).
C Maj7: C (root), E (major 3rd), G (perfect 5th), B natural (major 7th)
I'm sure that's understood by the posters above, but clarifying for the new learners reading. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
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Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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sing it
play it
repeat _________________ Bill Bergren |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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So, about the 'naming' of the chords -
a C7 is a chord in the key of C (major) that includes the flatted 7th of the tonic?
AND ...
It 'happens to be' the 'Dominant 7th' chord of F major?
Because F major is the first key that includes the Bb?
edit: and of course because C is the perfect 5th (the dominant) of the F chord.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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