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nOt_vInCe_penZarelLa
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Joined: 04 Feb 2019
Posts: 3
Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:11 am Post subject: Equipment, Specific suggestions |
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First post on this forum and similar questions have probably been answered many times before, but looking for suggestions about high range development.
A bit about me: I mostly play classical rep and my current range pretty much covers all the stuff I'd ever want to play. On C trumpet (bach strad), I can play high concert D, Eb somewhat reliably on Bach 1.5c mouthpiece. I do not own a piccolo trumpet, but am looking into it; played a Bach b minor mass gig on C trumpet this Christmas - got the notes, but not a pleasant physical experience.
Big band lead playing is somewhat interesting to me and I'd like to play higher on the Bb trumpet. I find that on Bb trumpet, I have a much harder time getting a strong sound in the upper register. Bought one of the marcinkiewicz mouthpieces and its so shallow and gives only marginal benefits to range if any. Even if I warm up a lot, I can't really break concert F (4 ledger-line G on Bb horn) on it. I know that range development takes patience and there's no silver bullet, but I feel like equipment is significant. My Bb (bach strad artisan model) has a fantastic sound up to high concert C, but really thins out beyond that on any mouthpiece. Maybe it's the mouthpiece or the horn or a combination. Also possible that building range beyond this point takes a huge amount of time that I just don't have at this stage in my playing career (university student, not studying music) and that's also fine.
Mainly pinging this channel to see what equipment (horn, mouthpiece, etc) people here use. Perhaps I need to separate modes of playing (ie I'm naively approaching "screamer" playing with methods better suited for classical rep- concertos, cornet solos, orchestra, etc). Any feedback greatly appreciated. Thanks!  |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:46 am Post subject: |
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You’re likely to get two types of responses here. One will be “it’s NOT the equipment!!”, the other will be from people with specific horn and mouthpiece suggestions.
I tend to fall somewhere in the middle, leaning more towards the first type of response. I will tell you that I had some success many years ago in high school using pedal tone studies, but I only went from a weak concert C above the staff, to a useable concert F. So, certainly not in the “screamer” category, but a useable top end for most of the type of playing I did back then and still do.
And I doubt much of the above will be especially useful to you, but that’s been my experience, there are people here who hopefully can give you more concrete suggestions.
Brad
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LSOfanboy
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Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Equipment, Specific suggestions |
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| nOt_vInCe_penZarelLa wrote: | First post on this forum and similar questions have probably been answered many times before, but looking for suggestions about high range development.
A bit about me: I mostly play classical rep and my current range pretty much covers all the stuff I'd ever want to play. On C trumpet (bach strad), I can play high concert D, Eb somewhat reliably on Bach 1.5c mouthpiece. I do not own a piccolo trumpet, but am looking into it; played a Bach b minor mass gig on C trumpet this Christmas - got the notes, but not a pleasant physical experience.
Big band lead playing is somewhat interesting to me and I'd like to play higher on the Bb trumpet. I find that on Bb trumpet, I have a much harder time getting a strong sound in the upper register. Bought one of the marcinkiewicz mouthpieces and its so shallow and gives only marginal benefits to range if any. Even if I warm up a lot, I can't really break concert F (4 ledger-line G on Bb horn) on it. I know that range development takes patience and there's no silver bullet, but I feel like equipment is significant. My Bb (bach strad artisan model) has a fantastic sound up to high concert C, but really thins out beyond that on any mouthpiece. Maybe it's the mouthpiece or the horn or a combination. Also possible that building range beyond this point takes a huge amount of time that I just don't have at this stage in my playing career (university student, not studying music) and that's also fine.
Mainly pinging this channel to see what equipment (horn, mouthpiece, etc) people here use. Perhaps I need to separate modes of playing (ie I'm naively approaching "screamer" playing with methods better suited for classical rep- concertos, cornet solos, orchestra, etc). Any feedback greatly appreciated. Thanks! |
I'm not going to get involved (as you have requested) in debating about whether equipment is important and will aim to answer your question by listing the equipment choices of some a the great high note players:
Louis Dowdeswell- Bach Strad 43G (he has changed around a bit recently) with a GR WB studio
Wayne Bergeron- Yamaha Custom 'Bergeron' model with the GR WB series
Ryan Quigley- Bach Strad something with a GR WB studio
Mike Lovatt- ML Smith Watkins trumpet and mouthpiece
Ryan Kisor- (changes frequently but have often seen) Schilke Faddis model with a Schilke Faddis mouthpiece
Jon Faddis- (same as above!)
Andy Greenwood- Yamaha Miyashiro/Bach Strad with GR Miyashiro mouthpiece
Eric Miyashiro- Yamaha Miyashiro and GR Miyashiro mouthpiece
Allen Vizzutti- Vizzutti Yamaha trumpet and mouthpiece
James Morrison- Morrison Schagerl trumpet and apredato mouthpiece
Roger Ingram- Jupiter Ingram trumpet and (I think) Marcinkiewicz mouthpiece
Hope that can be of some use.
All the best |
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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hello
which Marc. mpc did you buy? in the 300 serie whose ID is like Bach 1.5, you have 7 cup depths less deep than the 1.5C, the 315 being the shallowest one, and being like a 3C cup depth.
In the Endorsee serie, same 1.5 ID range, shallower than the 315, you have the E6, E9, E9.6, E10
best |
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Christian K. Peters
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Joined: 12 Nov 2001
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Location: Eugene, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:40 pm Post subject: Equipment |
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Hello,
Welcome to the TH. I can not even imagine anybody trying to play the bm mass on anything but a pic. You must have been brave. It was part of an audition I did a while back... did not make the cut. Though I can see it would be much easier on C pic. Anyway... There are thousands of us out there with the same dreams and challenges. I can not play a shallow mouthpiece myself. I think you could go slightly narrower and a tad less cup with a slightly tighter back bore. Then work on efficiency of air stream. As long as the MP and horn are working together, gap wise, you can only do what your talent can muster. I think you can prepare for the range with everything the others offer...Pedals, slurs, flexibility, air flow, relaxation and methods...And if you are one of the chosen few, you might even gain the marque of a 'real' lead player...Or just be a good all-around player. Only my 2 cents.
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Equipment, Specific suggestions |
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| nOt_vInCe_penZarelLa wrote: | First post on this forum and similar questions have probably been answered many times before, but looking for suggestions about high range development.
A bit about me: I mostly play classical rep and my current range pretty much covers all the stuff I'd ever want to play. On C trumpet (bach strad), I can play high concert D, Eb somewhat reliably on Bach 1.5c mouthpiece. I do not own a piccolo trumpet, but am looking into it; played a Bach b minor mass gig on C trumpet this Christmas - got the notes, but not a pleasant physical experience.
Big band lead playing is somewhat interesting to me and I'd like to play higher on the Bb trumpet. I find that on Bb trumpet, I have a much harder time getting a strong sound in the upper register. Bought one of the marcinkiewicz mouthpieces and its so shallow and gives only marginal benefits to range if any. Even if I warm up a lot, I can't really break concert F (4 ledger-line G on Bb horn) on it. I know that range development takes patience and there's no silver bullet, but I feel like equipment is significant. My Bb (bach strad artisan model) has a fantastic sound up to high concert C, but really thins out beyond that on any mouthpiece. Maybe it's the mouthpiece or the horn or a combination. Also possible that building range beyond this point takes a huge amount of time that I just don't have at this stage in my playing career (university student, not studying music) and that's also fine.
Mainly pinging this channel to see what equipment (horn, mouthpiece, etc) people here use. Perhaps I need to separate modes of playing (ie I'm naively approaching "screamer" playing with methods better suited for classical rep- concertos, cornet solos, orchestra, etc). Any feedback greatly appreciated. Thanks! |
You've got a good head on your shoulders. It will happen my friend. The ones who expect immediate results or worse still get cocky? They fall by the wayside even faster than the timid types.
A few notes about lead/shallow pieces. They share at least one thing in common with the larger mouthpieces such as you use on classical music. These shallower pieces require very intelligent chops!
A. Changing to a shallow piece either full-time or part-time is best accomplished in graduated adjustments. If your goal is to say work into a real screamer piece? Don't buy it today. Instead use one which is halfway between your regular piece and the scream piece. Use this for a couple months then try something shallower still. Repeating the above process until you arrive at the point where your scream piece is pretty much doing all the work. This plan actually took me close to five years to pull it off but was really worth it! And after I got down to a really shallow piece? Then all I had to do was just read the music and blow like hell.
B. Just about all stock lead/shallow mouthpieces have throats and back-bores which are far too tight. I bore all of mine out to at least a #23 or larger. If I try and play something really shallow on the typical #28 throat? All I'm doing is throwing tons of pure edge out into the audience. I hate that sound so I opened my really shallow pieces to #23. At a #23 or larger throat even the very shallowest of pieces sounds full and far in all registers. Inc a Low C. Also, when opening a thtoat the back-bore must get adjusted to compensate. Otherwise the upper register goes flat. Although I can do this for my own pieces? You should probably use a professional.
If you just open up the throat on a shallow piece without adjusting the back-bore to compensate? Your upper register will go almost a half step flat! Your tone will still be great. But in order to hit a high C in tune with your lower one? You'll need to either pull the tuning slide out an inch or finger and blow a high C#. No kidding!
PS: really like your choice of Marcinkiewicz. Excellent rim design on the lead pieces and even most their regular stock classical models have better rims too. They don't carve up your chops as does Vincent Bach and even Schilke.
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Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| JVL wrote: | hello
which Marc. mpc did you buy? in the 300 serie whose ID is like Bach 1.5, you have 7 cup depths less deep than the 1.5C, the 315 being the shallowest one, and being like a 3C cup depth.
In the Endorsee serie, same 1.5 ID range, shallower than the 315, you have the E6, E9, E9.6, E10
best |
In MMP the Bob and Chuck Findley models would put you in the righ ID I Vizzuti is also in that ballpark but the alpha angle is high. Works for Alan.
One of my buds has great success with the Yamaha heavy 14A4a. Reeves 43 is in your ballpark: 43C John Mohan), 43M, 43S and there are three different rims in that size and also the Purviance 9 & 9A( (4*3 & 5*3), JM's latest passion. BTW I think Roger I is currently using his own signature line of Pickett Mouthpieces. The MMP Ingrahm is good but small compered to your 1 1/5. It's a bit smaller than the MMP Shews. I have some friends who use Bach 3C for legit and like the Shew 1.5 for lead and show work. It's a jungle out there. Welcome to the cuckoos nest. |
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LSOfanboy
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Equipment |
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| Christian K. Peters wrote: | Hello,
Welcome to the TH. I can not even imagine anybody trying to play the bm mass on anything but a pic. You must have been brave. It was part of an audition I did a while back... did not make the cut. Though I can see it would be much easier on C pic. Anyway... There are thousands of us out there with the same dreams and challenges. I can not play a shallow mouthpiece myself. I think you could go slightly narrower and a tad less cup with a slightly tighter back bore. Then work on efficiency of air stream. As long as the MP and horn are working together, gap wise, you can only do what your talent can muster. I think you can prepare for the range with everything the others offer...Pedals, slurs, flexibility, air flow, relaxation and methods...And if you are one of the chosen few, you might even gain the marque of a 'real' lead player...Or just be a good all-around player. Only my 2 cents. |
Hi Christian,
I totally agree with you. I'd never consider any of the Bach stuff on anything other than a Picc. I found (and shared) this video a while back and it does make me laugh to say; here is a player who actually could do B minor mass on C/Bb trumpet... https://youtu.be/j94TaakHeVE
To the O/P: my suggestion would be to keep some of the main parameters of your current mouthpiece, and make relatively small adjustments to the other ones in order to create a slightly more 'supportive' mouthpiece (which should be useable) rather than going straight to the 'lead' drawer, which you may well find utterly unplayable, not to mention sound awful.
If you, for instance, play a Bach 1C, I would recommend staying in the same ballpark but trying perhaps a 1D or 1E, shallower cups and different backbores but still roughly the same diameter, rim profile (kind of) and general feel. it would be an easier transition then moving to something (in this example) equivalent to a Bach 10 1/2C etc
All the best |
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RogerIngram
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Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 214
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the mention. Just to clarify: in addition to playing the XO Brass model 1600I Bb trumpet (medium .453 bore) for Big Band and commercial work (XO Brass is the professional line manufactured by the Jupiter Band Instrument company), I also play the XO Brass model 1602S Bb trumpet (medium large .459 bore) and the the XO Brass model 1624 S-R C trumpet (large bore) for orchestral/Broadway show obligations.
In recent years, I have gone larger with regard to my commercial/lead trumpet mouthpiece. The inside diameter of my rim is equivalent to a Bach 10, the depth is between a Bach D and E cup, and the mouthpiece bore is a made with #27 drill. This mouthpiece is manufactured for me by Peter Pickett of Pickett-Blackburn.
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nOt_vInCe_penZarelLa
New Member
Joined: 04 Feb 2019
Posts: 3
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| JVL wrote: | hello
which Marc. mpc did you buy? in the 300 serie whose ID is like Bach 1.5, you have 7 cup depths less deep than the 1.5C, the 315 being the shallowest one, and being like a 3C cup depth.
In the Endorsee serie, same 1.5 ID range, shallower than the 315, you have the E6, E9, E9.6, E10
best |
it's an E5*Bobby Shew 2 |
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Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2596
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Equipment, Specific suggestions |
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| nOt_vInCe_penZarelLa wrote: | | I know that range development takes patience and there's no silver bullet, but I feel like equipment is significant. |
It takes practice but it's not just a matter of building strength, it requires finding the way to do it as well as the right mouthpiece. I don't think you're going to play sizzling lead with a 1.5 Bach.
You have to be willing to experiment with changing some things to find the right focus/balance/use of chops/muscles, horn angle/teeth alignment, tongue arch, distribution of pressure, relaxation/tension. I find even the way I put the mp on the lips makes a difference - for example among other things I push the bottom lip up over the bottom teeth which puts things in the right place when I'm playing. I also focus on mentally orienting toward the top of the mp.
As far as a mp suggestion so far I haven't found anything I like better than a Yamaha Bobby Shew Lead.
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JVL
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| nOt_vInCe_penZarelLa wrote: | | JVL wrote: | hello
which Marc. mpc did you buy? in the 300 serie whose ID is like Bach 1.5, you have 7 cup depths less deep than the 1.5C, the 315 being the shallowest one, and being like a 3C cup depth.
In the Endorsee serie, same 1.5 ID range, shallower than the 315, you have the E6, E9, E9.6, E10
best |
it's an E5*Bobby Shew 2 |
Ok, so not only the Shew 2 has a smaller ID than Bach 1.5, but it's not really shallow.
Have a try with the 300 serie, from 309 to 314, the cup depth is between the 1.5 and the Shew 2 |
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Equipment, Specific suggestions |
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[quote="LSOfanboy"] | nOt_vInCe_penZarelLa wrote: | I'm not going to get involved (as you have requested) in debating about whether equipment is important and will aim to answer your question by listing the equipment choices of some a the great high note players:
Louis Dowdeswell- Bach Strad 43G (he has changed around a bit recently) with a GR WB studio
Wayne Bergeron- Yamaha Custom 'Bergeron' model with the GR WB series
Ryan Quigley- Bach Strad something with a GR WB studio
Mike Lovatt- ML Smith Watkins trumpet and mouthpiece
Ryan Kisor- (changes frequently but have often seen) Schilke Faddis model with a Schilke Faddis mouthpiece
Jon Faddis- (same as above!)
Andy Greenwood- Yamaha Miyashiro/Bach Strad with GR Miyashiro mouthpiece
Eric Miyashiro- Yamaha Miyashiro and GR Miyashiro mouthpiece
Allen Vizzutti- Vizzutti Yamaha trumpet and mouthpiece
James Morrison- Morrison Schagerl trumpet and apredato mouthpiece
Roger Ingram- Jupiter Ingram trumpet and (I think) Marcinkiewicz mouthpiece
Hope that can be of some use.
All the best |
Let me add a few morecomgos for perspective:
Old School:
John Howell rip Bach 25L/Bach 1C ("I don't cut through the band I COVER the band.") and he DID.
Bernie Glow rip - Bach 72*, Al Stewart rip Bach 72*/Bush W3D
Currently playing:
Danny Barber Bach ML37/3C (last I heard),
Tom Parmerter vintage Getzen LB Severinson/Bach 3D skeletonized
Chad Shoopman Powell trumpet/ itty bitty custom Warburton for lead,3C for legit.
Steve "Horntrader" Dillard - Selmer trumpet (this week)/ propriatory 3C based, made by Curry, mouthpieces (28 throat on his lead piece).
And the beat goes on.
PS practicing flexibilities and lip trills a la Walter Smith, Colin, Leon Merian, etc. are good for range. |
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nieuwguyski
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Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 2349
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I have a reliable high F. That, good tone, and "precise" reading (a term used by one of the players I gig with regularly) are enough to keep me in the lead chair in two big bands and get me periodic calls to sub on lead with a few other bands.
Since the OP stated, "pinging this channel to see what equipment (horn, mouthpiece, etc) people here use," I won't add to the list of equipment used by famous players.
I've used lots of different trumpets to play lead. Some horns you might not expect to work well worked fine, for me, like an Olds Recording. Some horns you might expect to work well didn't. Currently I'm using a Scodwell USA trumpet.
I've been playing mouthpieces with rims in the size neighborhood of a Bach 3C for a long time. For around 15 years my lead mouthpiece was a Reeves 43W rim on an S cup. More recently I've been playing shallow Wedge tops with a similar diameter.
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