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tworx1957 Regular Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2019 Posts: 15 Location: Rockwall, Texas (Dallas)
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:51 pm Post subject: Student Is Unable to Sustain s Good Lip Vibration |
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This little fella is probably one of the sweetest little boys I have ever worked with. I taught brass for 31 years and, as a trumpet player, I can’t remember any single instance when I was not able to see a youngster through this process. But I’m really stumped with this young fella.
I am missing something and it’s probably very obvious. Please take a look and give me any and all suggestions that come to mind.
Thank you for any contributions.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/neuyck3qhkd8zzn/1080p.mov?dl=0 _________________ Benjamin Davis
Rockwall,TX
www.trumpetworx.com
PT OfficeWorx
469-500-8031 |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Same thing would happen to me if I did that.
For me, I have to roll my lips in a bit to get any sort of buzz. Experiment with his basic 'mmm' setup. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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I had two beginners this year with similar difficulties. Both of them took a full half hour lesson to produce a buzz, in both cases I believe the aperture was too wide/open, one of them was trying to protrude the lips into the cup. Sort of looks like what your student might be doing (?) And both of my students were back to square one the next week, they both have caught on now, although they are my two weakest students, largely due to lack of effort (ie, practice)!!
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Demonstrate playing the lead pipe and have him copy your sound. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Setup is too loose, too open and too dry. Have him lick his lips and the rim. Also try raising the angle a bit and have him blow with more gusto. I don't sense there's enough pressure of the bottom teeth against the bottom lip.
Notice he gets some kind of sound when he's using a mouthpiece. Try having him play a complete horn.
As an OSHA matter - I see you're using a desoldered leadpipe with exposed old solder which I'm sure is tin/lead. I'd get it all cleaned off so your students aren't getting highly toxic lead on their fingers. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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NikolaTomic Regular Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2018 Posts: 61 Location: New York
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Can you post a video of him doing that with a mouthpiece that is inserted into a trumpet? _________________ Nikola Tomić
https://nikolatomic.com/nikolas-musings/ |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Well anybody who reads forums should know the reason - he's using a Bach mouthpiece.
My knee jerk reaction would also be that he is protruding into the mouthpiece and using too open a lip placement.
The suggestion of a little roll in might be literal, but also figuratively. Mental focus and concentration, that is. It's a matter of relating it to how it is and how it should be. The student needs to roll in a little, whatever that means.
Also, he probably needs to tighten his lips. And I don't mean a death-clamp, but it seems like he needs more firmness. I wouldn't suggest this for everyone, but here might be a situation where using a P.E.T.E. could be appropriate. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NikolaTomic Regular Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2018 Posts: 61 Location: New York
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:10 am Post subject: |
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This is just a hunch, but it seems from the video that the kid has a pretty pronounced cupid's bow. That will usually cause difficulties with sound production if the player attempts to form the embouchure in the middle of the lips, generally leading to playing in the red as the only means of ascending above the staff. This student might be better served by playing off to either the left or right by a considerable amount. In either case, it would be useful to see a video of your student actually trying to play a trumpet. _________________ Nikola Tomić
https://nikolatomic.com/nikolas-musings/ |
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Arbanator Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2008 Posts: 115 Location: McLean VA
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Have him say "dim" then, without changing his lips at all, put the mouthpiece on the lips and have him blow through. |
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chrisf3000 Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2004 Posts: 347 Location: Winnipeg, Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Looks to me like a very young student, so perhaps the problem lies with the concept of how to even make a tone? It seems like the student is very cautiously "blowing" through the device. Since the air and the chops have to work together as a partnership, I'd be curious if they can blow a "raspberry" sound as place to start? |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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When the student opens his mouth to take a breath, he loses his embouchure setting. Try having him breath through the corners instead, and make sure he keeps a certain amount of pressure while breathing, as if saying m while taking the breath. Keep his lips touching each other while inhaling. |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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NikolaTomic wrote: | This is just a hunch, but it seems from the video that the kid has a pretty pronounced cupid's bow. That will usually cause difficulties with sound production if the player attempts to form the embouchure in the middle of the lips, generally leading to playing in the red as the only means of ascending above the staff. This student might be better served by playing off to either the left or right by a considerable amount. In either case, it would be useful to see a video of your student actually trying to play a trumpet. |
I have the same problem. I can buzz and play fine, but I have to play with things rolled in a bit |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Curious as to any follow up on this...? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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tworx1957 Regular Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2019 Posts: 15 Location: Rockwall, Texas (Dallas)
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:00 pm Post subject: Follow Up |
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I will post more info plus another video Thursday evening. _________________ Benjamin Davis
Rockwall,TX
www.trumpetworx.com
PT OfficeWorx
469-500-8031 |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:02 am Post subject: |
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This ust occurred to me: in the middle school where I teach lessons, beginners start out simply blowing air without producing a buzz, so that they understand the concept of blowing a steady airstream. In two cases this year, I had beginning students who did not grasp that in addition to air flow they needed to produce a buzz. These two kids apparently “fell through the cracks” in class, and when they came to their first lesson, after a couple weeks of class, they really didn’t understand that simply blowing air through a too-open aperture would not produce any sound. In both cases, it took an entire 30 minute lesson to get a buzz; unusual, but they both finally got it. But coincidentally (maybe), both of these students are well behind where they should be in their development, but I think it’s primarily because neither of them do much if ANY practicing at home.....in spite of my conversations with them explaining that they really need to practice. Not really atypical, motivating kids to practice even minimally at this age is a common problem.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:26 am Post subject: |
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I have had success with using a trombone mouthpiece to get the initial buzz going and then stepping the kid down to a trumpet mouthpiece. Often, once they experience what the buzz feels like on the larger piece they are able to scale it down and replicate it on the trumpet mouthpiece. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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tworx1957 Regular Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2019 Posts: 15 Location: Rockwall, Texas (Dallas)
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:07 am Post subject: Video with Student on Mouthpiece and Cornet |
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This little fellow has some serious physical/health issues but is sharp as a tack and has the sweetest disposition. I've never had a student who, at some point, was unable to produce a tone. He really wants to do well. I see him twice a week when I go to assist with special cases such as this. He never leaves the room without saying, "big hug," before he leaves.
Several of you asked me to post an additional video with him on the instrument. For privacy reasons (and to avoid possibly violating FERPA) I'm posting this with as much care as possible to avoid showing his complete face.
All suggestions are welcome. It would make such a difference in his life if we could help. Video is 43 seconds in length.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dnlwpges5s6s84h/Cornet.MOV?dl=0
[/url] |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:36 am Post subject: |
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In the first video, he DID produce a tubby sound toward the end. At least he knows he has the beginnings of a sound. I haven't seen the new vid yet. Anyway, we're all pulling for him! _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Student Is Unable to Sustain s Good Lip Vibration |
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tworx1957 wrote: | This little fella is probably one of the sweetest little boys I have ever worked with. I taught brass for 31 years and, as a trumpet player, I can’t remember any single instance when I was not able to see a youngster through this process. But I’m really stumped with this young fella.
I am missing something and it’s probably very obvious. Please take a look and give me any and all suggestions that come to mind.
Thank you for any contributions.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/neuyck3qhkd8zzn/1080p.mov?dl=0 |
Teach the young man how to shoot peas or lentils through a straw. First off he'll have fun secondly it will teach him how air and tongue work together without having to know how to do it with just words and lastly it will help him form a faux embouchure when he launches one.
just sounds to me that he doesn't grasp the idea of lips together with air passing between them, you can then tell him to mimick blowing the peas through the mouthpiece, and then insert it into the pipe. Enunciate "poooo" into the piece and then insert, sometimes they stumble into a buzz and their eyes light up.
regards,
tom |
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