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Robert P
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | | Robert P wrote: | | I'm curious what you think puts the brakes on the faster air coming from the narrower passage before it strikes the aperture? |
I never said anything "puts the brakes on the faster air". The Bernoulli principle describes why a narrower passage leads to faster air velocity through that narrower passage, while a wider passage leads to a lower air velocity through that wider passage, but it doesn't have anything resembling "braking". Maybe you're "arguing against points that were never made." |
Per you:
| Quote: | The narrow passage of the tongue-arch tunnel increases the air speed inside the tongue-arch tunnel. But the lip aperture is not inside the tongue-arch tunnel, so it does not see the increase in speed caused by the tongue-arch.
Per me - Really? Why not? |
The lip aperture doesn't have to be inside the tongue arch channel to experience faster air.
Two scenarios - scenario 1 and 2. Scenario 2 the air is moving faster through area "A" than in scenario 1.
What do you suppose happens to the air going through area "B" in scenario 2 compared to scenario 1? According to what you've said as per above you think it doesn't move any faster. If you don't think it does then you believe something brakes it.
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Robert, the aperture is at the boundary of the pressurized air space of the body.. This includes the oral space. The flow into the playing system is determined by the total resistance encountered. The narrowing of the oral space would indeed have faster average air velocity IF the airflow is the same for both cases. But this would not increase the air pressure acting on the aperture. Therefore if the aperture is the same and the pressure is the same, then the air velocity through the aperture also would remain unchanged.
You cannot analyze the system without considering the air pressure. The air velocity alone is not the full story. Are you familiar with the Bernoulli law and how that relates to the air velocity and the air pressure as the air flows through a closed system? |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | The air velocity alone is not the full story. |
No one has stated or implied that it is.
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mm55
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Joined: 01 Jul 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | If you don't think it does then you believe something brakes it. |
No, I do not believe any such thing. The slowing of the air can be fully explained by the Bernoulli principle, without resorting to any imaginary "braking." Are you familiar with the Bernoulli principle?
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:17 am Post subject: |
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you wrote: | Quote: | | What do you suppose happens to the air going through area "B" in scenario 2 compared to scenario 1? According to what you've said as per above you think it doesn't move any faster. If you don't think it does then you believe something brakes it. |
Are you implying that the air velocity through the aperture is different than the air velocity through the oral space?
Are you claiming that the air velocity through the aperture is greater in your scenario 2 than in scenario 1?
If the aperture is smaller in cross-section than the oral space then there will always be greater velocity through the aperture.
Also, the air velocity through an aperture is proportional to the air pressure difference on each side of that aperture. The velocity of the air flowing toward the aperture on the supply side does not influence the velocity through the aperture if one considers the flow as the same in each case.
However, if one considers the lung pressure as constant, and the aperture as constant, then drastically reducing the oral space with the tongue will introduce additional resistance to the flow before the aperture. This will reduce the flow AND it will reduce the pressure right before the lip aperture. In this case, the air velocity through the aperture will be less, even IF the flow velocity over the tongue is greater. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Regarding air 'velocity', I think it's necessary to consider what happens to the compressible air as it it flows thru a smaller or larger pathway.
If the air does not compress, then increased flow rate is due to the 'velocity' of the air increasing.
If the air does compress, then some of the increased flow rate is achieved by an increased mass of air moving with a smaller change in velocity.
And I think the 'Bernoulli principle' only addresses the pressure of the fluid passing WITHIN the passage through which it is contained - it doesn't address the 'pressure difference' at the ends of the passages.
Jay
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Regarding air 'velocity', I think it's necessary to consider what happens to the compressible air as it it flows thru a smaller or larger pathway. |
At the relatively low air pressures we use to play there is very little volume compression of the air. The air can be considered incompressible from a volume compression standpoint for simple flow.
Even if you did consider the small amount of density change with static pressure change, the "compression" would be less through narrower paths, not more. The static pressure is LOWER at areas of higher flow velocity, therefore the volume compression is less.
| Quote: | | And I think the 'Bernoulli principle' only addresses the pressure of the fluid passing WITHIN the passage through which it is contained - it doesn't address the 'pressure difference' at the ends of the passages. |
Basically yes. Bernoulli is an ideal case of inviscid fluid or gas flowing with a constant total pressure. That is, a fixed energy density.
The citing of Bernoulli is to show that one cannot consider an increase in flow velocity as an increase in the energy of the air. For example, the total air pressure bearing on the aperture is AT BEST the lung air pressure. Narrowing the oral space for an increase of air velocity does not increase the energy of the air bearing on the aperture. Therefore, it cannot increase the pressure difference across the aperture. This does hold true for every case, including trumpet playing.
Poiseuille's law deals with more real-world flow situations and addresses the loss of air pressure due to viscosity that Bernoulli law does not consider. It is also applicable. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | ... Narrowing the oral space for an increase of air velocity does not increase the energy of the air bearing on the aperture. Therefore, it cannot increase the pressure difference across the aperture. This does hold true for every case, including trumpet playing. ... |
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What causes 'air leakage' around the embouchure when playing high notes, and which doesn't happen with low notes (at least for me)?
Jay
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Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | you wrote: | Quote: | | What do you suppose happens to the air going through area "B" in scenario 2 compared to scenario 1? According to what you've said as per above you think it doesn't move any faster. If you don't think it does then you believe something brakes it. |
Are you implying that the air velocity through the aperture is different than the air velocity through the oral space? |
I'm stating that the air going through the aperture will be faster if the air reaching the aperture is faster.
Clearly you hold the incorrect notion that the aperture at a given pitch is fixed in size - it isn't.
| Quote: | | The air velocity alone is not the full story. |
You keep making pronouncements refuting a claim nobody made.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm stating that the air going through the aperture will be faster if the air reaching the aperture is faster. |
You have reached an incorrect conclusion.
If one considered a constant flow through the system and then reduced the flow area in the oral space, greater flow velocity would indeed be achieved in THAT path of reduced cross-section.
Velocity=Flow/Area
So if the flow is constant, and you reduce the area, the velocity is then increased.
But if the size (cross-sectional flow path) of the aperture remained constant with a constant flow. Then the velocity through the aperture would therefore be the same regardless of the size of the oral space or the velocity there. By the same formula.
Now if one was to consider the lung air pressure as constant in the two scenarios; Then reducing the oral space area would introduce additional resistance to flow before the aperture, even if a small increase in resistance. While the air velocity may still be increased over the tongue, the air velocity through the aperture would be reduced by some amount because there is a reduction of the flow.
Again, Velocity=Flow/Area holds. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm stating that the air going through the aperture will be faster if the air reaching the aperture is faster. |
You have reached an incorrect conclusion. |
Soooo... Even though the air going past the rising tongue gets faster as you go higher and/or blow harder, it has nothing to do with the simultaneously faster air that's going through the aperture.
I see.
Presumably you think the air going through the aperture gets faster by.... *MAGIC*
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mm55
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm stating that the air going through the aperture will be faster if the air reaching the aperture is faster. |
You have reached an incorrect conclusion. |
Soooo... Even though the air going past the rising tongue gets faster as you go higher and/or blow harder, it has nothing to do with the simultaneously faster air that's going through the aperture.
I see. |
Apparently not.
| Robert P wrote: |
Presumably you think the air going through the aperture gets faster by.... *MAGIC* |
The Bernoulli effect. Not magic. Science may look like magic until you dig a little deeper.
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Soooo... Even though the air going past the rising tongue gets faster as you go higher and/or blow harder, it has nothing to do with the simultaneously faster air that's going through the aperture. |
Ok now you have presented other variables. Pitch (change in aperture posture) and air pressure.
If you blow harder the sound volume will increase and there will be more air flow as well. The air speed through the oral space may also increase, (all on a constant pitch) But it is not the air speed through the oral space that causes the change in loudness. It is the air pressure that controls the loudness. And the lip posture controls the pitch. Air speed, ANYWHERE, does not determine the pitch. Especially the air velocity through the mouth as it approaches the aperture.
But I understood your earlier scenarios were an attempt to prove that air velocity increased by reducing the oral space path would influence the air velocity through the aperture.
| Quote: | | Presumably you think the air going through the aperture gets faster by.... *MAGIC* |
No. The air velocity through the aperture is proportional to the air pressure bearing on the boundary where the aperture is. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | Presumably you think the air going through the aperture gets faster by.... *MAGIC* |
No. The air velocity through the aperture is proportional to the air pressure bearing on the boundary where the aperture is. |
You've established you're convinced that air speed over the tongue has no connection whatsoever to air speed through the aperture.
I'm curious why you think it is that to play higher/lower one has to change the tongue level/arch.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | ... I'm curious why you think it is that to play higher/lower one has to change the tongue level/arch. |
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A big unknown is whether "to play higher/lower one has to change the tongue level/arch". I'm sure that some people can and do play a wide range of pitch without significant tongue change.
And yes, it appears that the tongue position does change for many people - but it's not clear that they do it on purpose, or whether it 'just happens' in conjunction with some more important mouth, throat, embouchure change that is the real instigator of pitch change.
Some people intentionally change their tongue position, maybe that makes it easier to accomplish the other changes needed for pitch change. They can probably do pitch changes without intentional control of their tongue, but find it easier when they do so.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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SteveDurand
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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For me personally, the idea that the position of the tongue controls the pitch is easily disproven.
I can play a high C or above and wiggle my tongue all over inside my mouth with no effect on the pitch.
Steve |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveDurand wrote: | For me personally, the idea that the position of the tongue controls the pitch is easily disproven.
I can play a high C or above and wiggle my tongue all over inside my mouth with no effect on the pitch.
Steve |
You can wiggle *part* of your tongue - if this wasn't possible you wouldn't be able to articulate notes up higher. Human physiology, evolution and physics working in our favor to make this possible. Try playing that high C while maintaining the feeling of a yawn - i.e. the back of your tongue lowers and see what happens to that C.
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SteveDurand
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:39 am Post subject: |
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I can stick my tongue out to the side of my cheek or paste it flat against the roof of my mouth without changing the pitch. Either of these would completely disrupt any kind of air channel.
Doing a "yawn" type action would change the position of my jaw. which I think is much more important than the tongue. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| SteveDurand wrote: | | I can stick my tongue out to the side of my cheek or paste it flat against the roof of my mouth without changing the pitch. |
If you did that you would cut off the air altogether. Until you show me an X-ray film of you or anyone else playing a high C with their tongue flat against the roof of their mouth I call bull.
| Quote: | | Doing a "yawn" type action would change the position of my jaw. which I think is much more important than the tongue. |
By a yawn action I mean the action of the tongue/throat such as you can do with your teeth closed which lowers the tongue arch in the area farther back near the throat. You're not going to play high notes doing it.
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SteveDurand
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: |
If you did that you would cut off the air altogether. |
The air goes around the sides of the tongue. Try it yourself, you can stick your tongue up to the top of your mouth and still blow air.
| Robert P wrote: |
Until you show me an X-ray film of you or anyone else playing a high C with their tongue flat against the roof of their mouth I call bull. |
Asking for evidence is certainly appropriate but I don't appreciate the insinuation that I am lying. I was hoping this would be a civil discussion
I would love to do this. Does anyone know of a place in Southern California where I could get an x-ray like this? (and I don't have to pay a lot to do it)
| Robert P wrote: | | By a yawn action I mean the action of the tongue/throat such as you can do with your teeth closed which lowers the tongue arch in the area farther back near the throat. You're not going to play high notes doing it. |
I really don't understand this. To actually yawn I need to open my mouth wider. If I try and yawn without dropping my jaw it seems like my tongue moves to block the air passage more. |
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