do cornets need tuning slide rings?/triggers

[dyeabsley]

I've got an Olds Ambassador and a Boosey & Hawkes Imperial without triggers/throws and they both seem to play in tune alright .
But nowadays, even the cheapest cornet has at least one slide throw, if not two.
So what's changed?

[trumpetmike]

I have noticed something very similar with some of my older trumpets (a couple of Hawkes & Son Clippertones). Low D and C# are very well in tune, with no triggers or slide rings needed.
I have talked about this with some makers and repairers and there seems to be the thinking that the inaccuracies of the older workmanship caused these anomalies. The manufacturing of instruments is now such a precise science, with measurements being measured to incredible accuracy and the materials now being so exactly measured, that the inaccuracies are much less common.
Whether this is the case, I am not certain, but it would seem to explain why it seems to happen so often with the older instruments.

Maybe all this technology (plasma welding, laser guided measurements, all that sort of stuff) has still got some way to go before it catches up with the human touch?

[pedaltonekid]

The only horn that I have ever played that did not need an adjustment for the low D and C# was an Edwards prototype that Bob Kase was playing. I Andy Naumann (new owner of Schilke) was the one who built it for him. It was really weird to have those notes in tune without adjustment, but if you threw the slide out of habit it would make the pitch go out.

[pedaltonekid]

[ This Message was edited by: pedaltonekid on 2004-02-21 20:37 ]

[pedaltonekid]

The only horn that I have ever played that did not need an adjustment for the low D and C# was an Edwards prototype that Bob Kase was playing. I Andy Naumann (new owner of Schilke) was the one who built it for him. It was really weird to have those notes in tune without adjustment, but if you threw the slide out of habit it would make the pitch go out.

It is possible to play in tune without adjustment on other horns, but it requires a great deal of lipping the note.
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Best Regards, Play Well!!

[plp]

I notice that my Holton Super Colligiate could use a functioning 3rd valve slide (it is not stuck, just not very free) for D, C#, and G# (never had one that was noticably sharp on G#). However, my Victor works great without any adjustment, even on quick passages it stays in tune. The 3rd valve slide is noticably longer than most other cornets, and when I play a forth space E trill (000/001) there is a definate flatness to the third valve E, so we can deduce they were just built that way.

[Paul.Trumpet]

Cornets need tuning adjusters because depending on the mouthpiece used and the player, intonation changes.
Especially when your lips tire and you can't lip in the note any more on an "instrument" made in India.
Its good to find a (more expensive) instrument that's right on the pitch.

[tom turner]

Until about 75 years ago trumpets and cornets did NOT have adjustment hooks, triggers or rings. The also were constructed using a slightly different "scale" ratio for the length of the valve slide tubes.

Back then, the third valve slides were about 1/4" longer than the ratio used today, and I suspect the 1st valve slide would have been of slightly different length.

Back then the idea was to "split the difference" between the very sharp Low C# and the flat Eb above it. Thus, the Low D was pretty much in tune and the Low C# and the Low Eb were BOTH easy to lip in tune!!!

THEN . . . hooks, rings and triggers began to appear and the scale ratios changed to become as they are today.

Today's third valve slides are cut TOO SHORT to lip a Db down into correct tune, and the Low D is also sharp! However, the Low Eb is now just about perfectly in tune without lipping! The idea was to sharpen up the Eb to get it perfect, then have the player kick out the third valve slide properly to get the Low D and Low Db down to perfect pitch. The goal was to have these notes be perfectly in tune without lipping!

EARLIER TRUMPETS AND CORNETS WITHOUT HOOKS, RINGS AND TRIGGERS . . .

Many of these horns were made with the old philosophy of avoiding adjustment devices and simply lip the offending notes easily in tune via the lip.

Frankly . . . I like the old idea BETTER!

On today's horns with adjustment devices, if one forgets to trigger (as many, many younger players do), the offending Low D and Low Db are SOOOOOO sharp. As a matter of fact, using the new philosophy, that Low Db is 51 cents (a full quarter-tone) sharp. Ouch!

In the "old days" band directors taught the kids to listen and lip . . . but today's modern horns are assumed by many to be "tuned at the factory" and this discourages young players to listen.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[trumpetmike]

Thanks Tom - can always rely upon you for the detailed answer.

When some of the modern makers reproduce the older models, do they use the older tubing lengths, or do they use the dimensions that we are used to, just making the instruments look like their older counterparts?

[trumpet_dude_1]

This makes me wonder if the slide on the tip of the Bach 3rd valve slide (on trumpet, don't run me out, I play cornet too ) was there so the player could choose which method he wanted to use for controlling intonation. Any thoughts?
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Matt Stevens
Bb - Bach 72*/43
Picc - Kanstul 1520

[BrassChuck]

Or maybe it's just to get the water out quickly? (ie. without having to undo screws)

Interesting point though! Makes one think.
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BrassChuck