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bdouglas1900@gmail.com New Member
Joined: 02 Mar 2019 Posts: 3
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Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:37 am Post subject: Pit Playing end show problems |
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I am currently playing in the pit orchestra for my college in their upcoming production on principle trumpet. Near the end of the show theres about 2 moments where the book tells me to leap from a high C# to a high F#. For those curious, the show is Spamalot and the two moments are at the end of "His Name is Lancelot" and the end of the "Finale". The problem I'm encountering is that I'm able to get through the entire book, except when it comes time to these two sections in the show, I either undershoot the F#, or just miss it completely. Generally I have good range, and I know for a fact that I can hit the note on its own, but why is it that I reach these specific points I trash my face and miss these notes, and more importantly what can I focus on to prevent missing these notes?
A reason I can think of for now is that I'm overthinking it and tense up too much when it comes to it. If that's the case how should I work on not tensing when it gets to that area? The weird thing about this in particular is I've always nailed the notes in rehearsal, but it's only when we moved into the pit for rehearsals that the problems have started... |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Well.......asking why am I missing a difficult lick is fairly self evident.
-It is hard
-It is at the end of the show
-Trumpet players occasionally miss difficult notes.
-Respectfully, based on your phraseology you do not sound like a commercial lead trumpet player.
-Commercial lead trumpet players own those notes
So what to do?
Practice from a commercial lead trumpet approach. Lip slur 2 bars of 4ths in eighth notes within a diatonic scale. F-Bb, G-C, A-D, Bb-E (augmented 4th), C-F. Rest. Then to F# scale; G scale, etc.
Mentally you are playing harder licks then the show. Mentally and physically you eventually will "own" those notes, not just be able to hit them.
Best of luck,
Gordon Stump _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2047 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:21 am Post subject: |
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If I understand your post correctly, you don't think that the issue is fatigue and that the F# is a note comfortably within your range. If so, a few thoughts:
(1) Can you hear the F# singing in your head when you begin that C#-F# slur? If not, practice with a piano or piano app to make sure you know exactly what that F# sounds like (every time) before you practice it. It is easy to miss a note when you don't know exactly what it sounds like, particularly in the upper register where the partials of the harmonic series crowd closer and closer together.
(2) If, as you suggest, the issue has to do with tension, try practicing the slur as C# to G# (or G). Once you've done that a number of times -- playing above the note you want -- go back to the F#. It should seem relatively easier.
Good luck! |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4810
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Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: |
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I've played on both the Broadway run and several other productions. It's a fav show of mine to play.
Sounds like you need to:
- Pace yourself better during the show. There's nothing that needs to be played REALLY LOUD.
- More on the LOUD aspect: high notes, simply by virtue that they are HIGH NOTES, will cut through. Back off a dynamic or two, lean into the mic a little (if you're using mics), and just go for a nice, clear & clean F#.
- Stay on piccolo trumpet. You play it from ms 19 -30, so just stay on it through the end of the tune.
And yes - those picc parts should be played to sound an octave higher than written.
- Stop thinking about it and just play the silly trumpet.
- Have fun storming the castle!
oh - wait - different movie reference. my bad. _________________ Tim Wendt
www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be |
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acritzer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 827 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Just a couple of thoughts related to situations I've been in:
-Depending on the size and makeup of the pit, hearing yourself can be hard and overcompensating may lead to poor playing habits.
-As a run of a show gets into full swing I've sometimes had fatigue that sets in. Not necessarily as it relates to the book by itself, but rather the book every night for a week straight. Typically, if I stay sensitive to this I can hold it off.
-Depending on the players in the pit I've often found that most just play too loud (semi-community type groups), this can also make it hard to hear or feel like you're projecting enough. |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4810
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Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:14 am Post subject: |
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acritzer wrote: | Depending on the size and makeup of the pit, hearing yourself can be hard and overcompensating may lead to poor playing habits. |
A spot-on analysis.
If you're having problems hearing yourself, experiment with using earplugs.
Also, the pitch-center of the pit and more specifically the musicians who are directly near you can and will have an effect on how you play. The absolute worst is everything is so out of tune that you have no foundation for hearing the notes you need to play.
Ear plugs or better yet the Musician's Earplugs will help remedy that problem. _________________ Tim Wendt
www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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trpthrld wrote: | I've played on both the Broadway run and several other productions. It's a fav show of mine to play.
Sounds like you need to:
- Pace yourself better during the show. There's nothing that needs to be played REALLY LOUD.
- More on the LOUD aspect: high notes, simply by virtue that they are HIGH NOTES, will cut through. Back off a dynamic or two, lean into the mic a little (if you're using mics), and just go for a nice, clear & clean F#.
- Stay on piccolo trumpet. You play it from ms 19 -30, so just stay on it through the end of the tune.
And yes - those picc parts should be played to sound an octave higher than written.
- Stop thinking about it and just play the silly trumpet.
- Have fun storming the castle!
oh - wait - different movie reference. my bad. |
This.
Quote: | - Stay on piccolo trumpet. You play it from ms 19 -30, so just stay on it through the end of the tune. |
And this in particular!!!
Best wishes, enjoy the rest of the run, Toi Toi Toi, and break a leg (but not your lip),
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Pit Playing end show problems |
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bdouglas1900@gmail.com wrote: | I am currently playing in the pit orchestra for my college in their upcoming production on principle trumpet. Near the end of the show theres about 2 moments where the book tells me to leap from a high C# to a high F#. For those curious, the show is Spamalot and the two moments are at the end of "His Name is Lancelot" and the end of the "Finale". The problem I'm encountering is that I'm able to get through the entire book, except when it comes time to these two sections in the show, I either undershoot the F#, or just miss it completely. Generally I have good range, and I know for a fact that I can hit the note on its own, but why is it that I reach these specific points I trash my face and miss these notes, and more importantly what can I focus on to prevent missing these notes?
A reason I can think of for now is that I'm overthinking it and tense up too much when it comes to it. If that's the case how should I work on not tensing when it gets to that area? The weird thing about this in particular is I've always nailed the notes in rehearsal, but it's only when we moved into the pit for rehearsals that the problems have started... |
I don't think that you're "overthinking" this note. Many of us have similar fears. Basically what your post described was the wide gulf between "practice room range" and "bandstand ready range".
I would guess that you're probably using some kind of
mouthpiece similar to a Bach 3C. This because most college level trumpets use these. While 3C mouthpieces work well up to a high C or so? They tend to over-tax our chops badly once at or above high C. So if I were you?
I'd carry an extra mouthpiece with me. Somewhere around a Schilke 14a4. Or the 13a4 up to 12a4. LMost good musical instrument stores will have one of these. Practice half the show on it including the high notes. Then practice the other half on your regular piece. It may take a couple weeks to familiarize yourself with how the shallower pieces work but what I just deacribed is by far the easiest way to fix the problem that you just described.
Now? Watch your intonation! _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5682 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Unless you are getting paid to play for this show, take it down an octave - seriously, play the C# and F# down - you'll be the only one who knows, and rather than wondering if you are going to hit it, or actually missing it over half the time, you can play it confidently knowing you are going to nail it. Almost no one is going to know that you decided to bunt rather than going for the home-run. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4810
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | Unless you are getting paid to play for this show, take it down an octave - seriously, play the C# and F# down - you'll be the only one who knows, and rather than wondering if you are going to hit it, or actually missing it over half the time, you can play it confidently knowing you are going to nail it. Almost no one is going to know that you decided to bunt rather than going for the home-run. |
Excellent suggestion.
It's the end of the show, and the action on stage will get much more attention than what the pit plays...unless what the pit plays sounds terrible.
Plus everyone will really be pumping sound and most likely not really listening for pitch, which will not help you in your playing it where it's written.
PLUS...those notes are probably doubled by a reed player and or a keyboard player. _________________ Tim Wendt
www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Why should a trumpet need to play that high in a Broadway show anyway? It's not a place for showboating from the pit, is it? I'm asking in a very broad sense, coming from no knowledge and little experience. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4810
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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jetjaguar wrote: | Why should a trumpet need to play that high in a Broadway show anyway? It's not a place for showboating from the pit, is it? I'm asking in a very broad sense, coming from no knowledge and little experience. |
The answer is, quite simply, purely because it's Broadway.
Debate it all that you will, but that's the best answer.
There's a saying:
"There's the right way,
The wrong way,
and the Broadway."
Trying to make any sense of it or see any logic to it is, IMO, a complete waste of brain time.
It is what it is! _________________ Tim Wendt
www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Tim. In other words, no use trying to make sense out of it. There's no way to know if you have arrived at the correct answer.
Nice to have people on here willing to share deep, professional experience. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect a large number of high range trumpet parts are also because, with the advancement of MIDI connected notation software, a lot of keyboard players, who are weak in orchestration, just play on keyboards what sounds good and it is automatically transferred to trumpet (and other) parts.
Another reason is a double edged sword. Writers write stuff that is darn near impossible and it becomes a norm, then newer players use that as a starting place and then play stuff that is even more "impossible. And on and on, _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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benlewis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 1011 Location: Memphis, TN
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Amen, Tim! I still wonder why they need to dance in B...
Ben |
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wilcox96 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 525 Location: Matthews NC
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Mostly this has been said in so many words, but I only offer this twist. I'll preface it by saying I know you always want to do your best, every time you play...no matter the circumstances. The following comments are, in no way, meant to be counter to that notion.
Still... ha. Life is life! Sometimes you have to be real...and smart! If you'd like to nail that last high stuff...awesome. Maybe you look at other sections in the show and take THAT stuff down an octave as a way of "pacing" yourself. If you are trying to play this with even the best of players (which may not be the case), you're playing a HUGE orchestration with only a handful of players (as in, if the show originally called for 2-3 trumpets, 3-4 ww's, 2 bones..etc)... or MORE... and you are doing it as a single trumpet, a handful of winds and a rhythm section, uh...that's tough. You have no support! Honestly, some of the stuff might actually sound better down an octave, so that the voicings of the number of folks you have playing together might be harmonically closer together.
Yes, there are some sections that just beg for the written register. Others... just might sound better, in the circumstance, down. You're not killing yourself alone, you'll make the pit sound better and you may find your strength at the end of the show is greatly increased.
You can only get away with this type of thing in certain circumstances. Sounds like this may be one of those. Be smart, survive to play the big notes at the end and go home a happy person. Oh.. and don't forget the Checky! $$$ (The Producers show line reference) _________________ Brad Wilcox
https://www.bandmix.com/wilcox96/ |
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