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teds87 Regular Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2019 Posts: 12 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:55 pm Post subject: Low Register Issues |
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Making a comeback after 13 years. I’ve been practicing consistently for 10 days, and I am having a really hard time with my low register. It’s better depending on the mouthpiece. With a 3C I can’t even make a sound on Ab or lower. On bigger mouthpieces I can produce actual tones, but they’re still not great (1.5C and Schilke 18C3D). With my current level of chops-fitness, the big mouthpieces really limit my endurance and really limit my upper range to the point I have trouble completing some pretty basic Arban’s exercises. Am I just being too impatient? I have no problem being patient building my high range back up, but I feel like these low notes should be cake. Possible embouchure issue? I’ve always placed the mouthpiece mostly on the upper lip and I had a couple private instructors who thought about making me change that at a couple points. Someone recommended slow and soft Clarke studies, but I was wondering if anyone had other thoughts. |
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50YrComeback Regular Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 71 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Welcome back -
Like you (except 50 yr layoff), thought I would buzz through the Arban Book on my own and in a few months regain the skill it originally took me 9 years to develop. I was making similar posts trying to get advice from people who can't even hear or see what I am doing. Like you, I figured it might be a mouth piece issue. The best advice I received on the forum is to find a good teacher to at least get you re-started as you don't waste the time you have. Have somebody look at your set-up and also help you manage your expectations. If the embouchure needs changing, much easier to do it now that 3-6 months from now. Everybody's different so what works for one person, won't necessarily work for somebody else.
If you spend anytime (don't spend too much time or you'll go crazy) on this forum, you'll find out there is generally no agreement on method and/or embouchure set-up.
At the beginning, I couldn't produce a note with a breath attack, I had difficulty playing below the low C and couldn't produce a G below low C. In time with the guidance of a teacher and "connecting my own dots", I'm able to do a lot of good stuff.
Regarding finding a good teacher - maybe check with the local college and/or high school programs? You'll get some SKYPE lesson offers, but in my opinion, at least in the beginning, its important to be sitting directly across from someone if at all possible.
In the meantime, I would focus on the long tones with breath attacks and try to produce some quality tone.
Anyway, have fun re-learning but definitely get some guidance. _________________ GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"
50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet |
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teds87 Regular Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2019 Posts: 12 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:38 am Post subject: |
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That’s really good advice. Somehow the thought of finding an instructor never even crossed my mind. I actually now live in the area of the guy I had in college. Maybe I will look him up. Thanks! |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8925 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:32 am Post subject: |
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I would generally stay away from the bigger pieces to solve the current limitation. I'd stick with the 3C and find exercises that promote ease in the lower register. I'd probably go with the first part of the Schlossberg book. If you're not familiar then you might benefit from at least a couple lessons from someone who can show you how to approach them. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:15 am Post subject: |
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27 Groups of Exercises by Earl D. Irons.
Great book. Practiced methodically and according to instructions, it will help you develop embouchure control and efficiency, improve playable range (up and down) and improve air efficiency.
Use a metronome with it. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:30 am Post subject: |
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I love doing pedal tones as part of my daily chop routine, because they make my low notes feel "not as low." (Since I routinely play far below them.)
Pedals have other benefits as well, when done in moderation, but the above is one of them - for me.
You're only 10 days in. A proper embouchure is going to take a lot longer than that to develop. Be patient and play lots of long tones and lip slurs and you'll be fine! _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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mrhappy Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2018 Posts: 371 Location: Port Jackson, NY
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Low Register Issues |
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teds87 wrote: | I’ve been practicing consistently for 10 days. |
HOLY COW...10 DAYS??!! C'mon man, you should be playing an octave above Maynard by now!!!
Seriously... It's good to keep an eye on things but you should probably give yourself a LITTLE time to get the 'ol train a chugging'!! _________________ MH |
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teds87 Regular Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2019 Posts: 12 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Low Register Issues |
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mrhappy wrote: | teds87 wrote: | I’ve been practicing consistently for 10 days. |
HOLY COW...10 DAYS??!! C'mon man, you should be playing an octave above Maynard by now!!!
Seriously... It's good to keep an eye on things but you should probably give yourself a LITTLE time to get the 'ol train a chugging'!! |
I know, I know....
I’ve actually been surprised about how quickly everything is coming back overall. Going into this, I knew upper register and endurance would take a long time to build back up, I just wasn’t expecting to struggle below the staff. |
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3bflat Regular Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2017 Posts: 26
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Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Low Register Issues |
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teds87 wrote: | Making a comeback after 13 years. I’ve been practicing consistently for 10 days, and I am having a really hard time with my low register. |
I'm fifteen years into my comeback. The best thing I did was to find a teacher to assist me with relearning methods/techniques that I had forgotten. One of his best pieces of wisdom was a reference to Tom Hooten (principal trumpet LA Philharmonic) who has these mantras for his practice routines: Many small improvements, perfect form and concentration and art of routine.
Good luck |
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Stutrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2018 Posts: 49
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Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Since I came back I am actually playing better than ever. This is partly because I now have the time to practice and I look at quite a lot of the top pro's vids that I found via links on the forum.
I would agree with getting a good teacher - helps you keep your focus. Mouthpiece size isn't really an issue so long as it is not extreme. Kurt Thompson demonstrates in a video what I was told many years ago 'Be prepared to play anything on anything' Kurt shows it is possible to get double top C on any mouthpiece including French horn mouthpiece. Also try warming up on trumpet with the main slide pulled right out - jus tMP + leadpipe buzzing.
Years ago I played down to one side and thought it was due to my teeth - wrong - I went to see a top UK pro who just got me to say 'mmmmm' and told me to practice using that formation (fairly central between top and bottom lip) but the best advice was then ONLY to practice this way - when out playing don't try to do it - it will take over subconsciously - and it did. My embouchure is central and no air leaks.
Next aim is high register and I am practising Kurt's roll-in, roll-out technique. I can now get double top C which gives me much more confidence in orchestral playing with those long quiet top D's e.g. in Mahler. |
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jrd19580 Regular Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2016 Posts: 56 Location: Racine, Wisconsin
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Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:50 am Post subject: |
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teds87,
I will echo what some of the others have already said, find yourself a good teacher and let the teacher help you and give you a program to get back on the right track. I am blessed to have a great trumpet player, who is also a fantastic teacher here locally and he has helped me on the comeback road. He is also a GR fitter and he helped me to find the right mouthpiece for me and the horn I play.
I am a converted baritone player, and after a 40+ years layoff and only knowing how to read bass clef, I decided I wanted to learn the trumpet and how to read Treble Clef.
At first, it was slow going but after a couple of years, (had a couple of surgeries that slowed me down) but it is finally coming around.
Some of the things I am able to play now I never dreamed I would be playing, my tone is vastly improved and the endurance is growing.
In summary......Find a good teacher
All the best!
John _________________ Yamaha 8310Z
Yamaha 731 Flugelhorn
Yamaha YCR-2330 Cornet |
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Kumara999 Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2019 Posts: 138 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:40 am Post subject: Low register issues |
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I also started back after 25 years about 4 months ago. I would echo getting a teacher right away - make sure that you are not starting back up with any bad habits you may have had.
My issue is the opposite. I can barely get out a good sounding E/F on the staff - I know it just takes time but still very frustrating. |
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thehedge Regular Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2008 Posts: 73
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:21 am Post subject: |
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I am also a comeback player and agree getting a good teacher is what will help the most. I waited much too long and struggled for a long time with what "I thought" worked in the past. Spent way too much time wondering why it seemed so much easier before (20+ years ago). Sometimes, you remember things much differently than they actually were. That coupled with playing many more hours back then.
My teacher has me completely changing my embouchure focusing on placement and "ease of playing". Since starting with pedal tones to loosen up and long tones, it is becoming much easier.
My only real issue is I still have trouble with double low pedals where they are almost all about one semi-tone sharp. May just need to relax even more to settle into the tones.
Best of luck in your comeback and take your time. |
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oliver king Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2008 Posts: 1742
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Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:35 am Post subject: |
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+1 (more) for finding a good teacher and being patient.
I'm 7 or 8 months into a new horn, 5 months into a new mouthpiece. Adding Caruso MCFB maybe two months ago is like the glue that pulls everything together. There are excellent notes to consider in the Caruso forum. My chops always feel fresh, I find myself craving the mouthpiece first thing in the morning. There's been a dynamic change in my tone and my range is expanding. _________________ LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3, |
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thehedge Regular Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2008 Posts: 73
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Posted: Tue May 07, 2019 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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One more addendum to my earlier advice. Don't spend too much time looking for all the "answers"/"solutions" to the "come back" problems you will encounter.
When I was originally playing, the closest music store was a long drive away and the Internet did not exist. These days, it's too easy to fall into the "spend more time on the web looking for a solution, a new mouthpiece, a new (or old) horn, a new technique, ..." mentality and you end up spending more time reading about playing than actually working on it. I know I did.
The advice I have seen of many on this site that I respect that seems to work best is
1. find a good teacher
2. practice, practice, practice
3. play, play and play some more
4. repeat steps 2 & 3
5. give it time. most people took several years in their beginning days
to actually begin to play well. Comeback players will often have to
go through some of those hurdles all over again BUT the mind often
gets in the way of trying to convince you of the "I used to ..."
6. repeat 2-5!
Most importantly, enjoy the music. (again) |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Low Register Issues |
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teds87 wrote: | Am I just being too impatient? |
Yes.
Give it a month. _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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I’m 6 months into my ‘comeback’ and 3 months into a new horn (the Bach listed in my signature)
My mouthpiece journey has been interesting, to say the least.
When I bought the Bach I asked them to switch the MP to a 3C (after all, I’m an experienced player. You’re not going to get me on a 7C). My tone was, at best, thin and hollow, even in the mid range.
I compounded the error by getting the Shew Lead, which caused even more problems.
So I picked up a 7C and had an immediate shift. I’ve been taking lessons, and my teacher said I was finally starting to sound like a trumpet player (not a cornet player trying to play trumpet).
The final piece of the puzzle was when I added a KGU Brass mouthpiece booster. It's made a real difference, especially in the bottom register. Best $60 I've spent. It's made my tone a lot warmer and more resonant, os as my teacher put it, "it's put meat on the bones"
Hope that helps _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
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robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Almost forgot. The other side of the equation has been lots of work on fundamentals using Arban. Also, I warm up with the Stamp warm ups, and I do a lot of long tone work.
My wife hates it - she wishes I'd just play tunes - but it makes a real difference. _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
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scarface Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2004 Posts: 1806
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I do mouthpiece and leadpipe buzzing, just a little at the moment. Can buzz down into the pedal register easily now, but it took a while to get there. I always had a tendency to collapse the corners while descending, which does me no good, especially on downward slurs. |
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