Conn Connstellations 28A and 38A with coprion bells

[UK-Conn]

Just joined the forum and thought I'd post something for Conn Connstellaton owners who, like me, have read lots of confusing stuff about bell materials. Hopefully I'll not confuse things more, but wanted to add some thoughts/ideas on the things said in particular about 28A Conn Connstellations not having coprion bells and also the idea from the Conn Loyalist (which is a brilliant resource) that the 37A (brass bell) Connstellation was renamed 38A in mid 60s (meaning the mid-late 1960s 38As don't have a Electro-D coprion bell but an Electro-D 'brass' bell).

Where to start... I have a 1966 38A Connstellation. I can say for sure that the bell is coprion - not brass/then electroformed copper/then electroformed nickel, but one-piece, seamless (electroformed) coprion, nickel plated (it was badly damaged and unfortunatey i've seen the bell split). Now I realise that this may just mean that it was a custom built horn but it got me questioning some of the received wisdom so I did some research around the Electro-D process.

First, despite what is often said, there seems to be strong evidence from Conn that the 28A and 38A DID have coprion bells post 1964. Conn's main product brochure from the mid 60s lists both the 28A and 38A as having 'Electro-D, one-piece, seamless coprion bell, nickel plated' The 38B and 36B, in contrast, are listed as 'Electro-D, special process nickel plated brass bell'.

Here's the link to the brochure mentioned

https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/255

38A is page 55, 28A page 56, 38B page 66 and 36B page 67.

This brochure is comprehensive and gives a detailed list of all the 'scientific' processes and R&D conducted by Conn as well as listing EVERY available instrument. The brochure does not list the 37A Connstellation. It is however listed in Conn's 1964 product price list. It would seem likely therefore that the main brochure was produced after 1964, and by that time Conn was no longer selling the 37A. If this is correct then after the 37A has been discontinued (1964/5?) Conn clearly describes the 38A Connstellaton as having a nickel pated one-piece, seamless coprion bell, contrary to what is normally thought.

I think maybe some of the confusion in the past may have come from descriptions (in Conn brochures and maybe by past employees?) of the Electro-D process. Conn use the term Electro-D interchangeably and confusingly to refer to electroformed copper/nickel over brass and 'nickel plating' over coprion and (in relation to mouthpipes) 'special process coprion and Electro-D'. I think when it related to the 38B, the process was more likely to be brass bell - copper and nickel (electro)plated (Electro-D), however, the 28A and 38A are also Electro-D but (according to Conn in the 60s) electroformed coprion bell, nickel plated. This might also explain why in Conns marketing literature in 1955, 1957 and 1958 the 28A is constantly referred to as 'Electro-D seamless bell' while the 38B is described as 'Electro-D bell'. The only other time (anywhere in Conn's brochures) that 'seamless' bells are mentioned is in relation to coprion.

It's been suggested to me that the 28A NEVER had a coprion bell and that the mention of coprion bells in the pages from the 1960s Conn brochure above are just there by mistake, but this seems highly unlikely. What I think this all shows is that there's pretty good evidence that Conn 28A Connstellations did have nickel plated coprion bells, and it seems likely that the mid 1960s 38A wasn't just a renamed 37A with nickel plated brass bell but was also nickel plated coprion........

I'd be interested to hear what people think (if anyone had the patience to read all of this!)

[romajore]

I used to own a 1955 Conn 28A. It definitely had a coprion bell that was nickel plated. You could see the bell through several wear points.

[UK-Conn]

I think one of the things that’s caused a lot of confusion is that even with the Electro-D instruments that have brass bells you can see copper where the nickel plating has worn. Unless the bell is actually dissected or taken right back to the coprion/brass it’s really hard to prove what it is one way or the other. I had a 28A about 10 years ago and always assumed it had a brass bell/copper plate/nickel plate. Mainly because there’s been a lot of discussion where people are told that their 28As or 38As don’t have a coprion bell – they are just seeing the electroplated copper (over the brass bell) where the nickel plate has worn off, and they are also told “anyway, Conn didn’t make a coprion bell 28A (or 38As after 1965)”…….But it’s there in print in Conn’s 1965 brochure, which is their most comprehensive (245+ pages), so I certainly think the mid 60s 28As and 38As were likely to be coprion, and as I said in my first post the 1950s 28As are also described as seamless (like the coprion bells are described), so may well be coprion too. I think it makes more sense, in terms of tone/sound concept, that the two Electro-D cornet Constellations would have darker sounding coprion bells, and the two trumpet Constellations would have brass bells. But who knows? Anyone?

[boog]

Interesting information, thanks!

I have two 36b's, one from the late '50's/early '60's according to the serial. It came from the factory WITHOUT the 1st valve trigger, so it IS an early 36b. The other is from the time period 65-68, WITH trigger.

The later model I know the history thereof, as it was gifted to me by the original owner, a fellow trumpet major in college, and a close friend. I played many gigs next to him back then and am very familiar with this particular trumpet.

The earlier model was a pawn shop basket case when I bought it. Makes a great studio horn, though, as it sounds really nice "on tape" (well, digitally these days).

Paradoxically, the earlier one (sans trigger) is "brighter" sounding to me, but is most likely to have a Coprion bell according to my limited research.

The later model is noticeably darker sounding, which leads me to believe that it is the copper bell model, but I could be misinformed.

I also own a pristine 28a long cornet (big bell model, of course) that came from the early '60's, according to the serial. It is definitely "copper" sounding, but this could be, in part, to the more conical bore of the instrument.

All these instruments are Elkhart-made and so stamped on the bells.

These instruments have incredibly good lead pipes. After all these years, they look new inside when inspected with a bore scope.

I own Bach, Benge, Selmer, Courtois, Getzen, Olds, Holton, and King trumpets and cornets, but the Connstellations are my go-to instruments for most venues, unless the organization needs the "Bach sound" (whatever that is).

Thanks again for the information.

Best regards, Dave

[UK-Conn]

Thanks for the reply Dave

I've heard something similar said about the darkness of the 38Bs with brass bells. Not played a 36B but have played a 38B next to my 38A and I 'hear' the 38A as darker with more core, but that's probably just me. I think, from Conn product guides and the Conn Loyalist that the 38B and 36B were the brass bell /copper/nickel plated version of Electro-D but I hear there were coprion 38Bs, but whatever the Electro-D process is/was, they were doing something right.

Loved my 28A but stupidly sold it (to get a Taylor Chicago). Regrets, I have a few................

[taylordiving]

I had a 38a short model cornet that I believe was a silver plated coprion bell. The reason I say this is when you looked inside the bell, once you got past the silver plated inner flare it was clearly copper (not brass or silver plate) which is what I had been advised to check for in reading previous posts on this topic.
_________________
Calicchio 1s7
Yamaha 8310Z
Reynolds Leonard Smith Contempora
1941 & 1942 Olds Supers
Getzen Eterna Cornet
Yamaha 8315G Flugel

[Goby]

It very well may be a copper bell, but there's usually a "strike layer" of copper underneath the nickel plating, so that could be what you're seeing. Regardless of material, Connstellations were way ahead of their time in design, sound concept, and construction.

[Subtropical and Subpar]

As the owner of a 1965 Connstellation 38A, I welcome this news / conclusion to the 'is it brass or copper' puzzle.
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1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel

[huntman10]

I currently have a 36A Connstellation, no trigger ever was on it, and clearly an unplated brass bell. My current 38A, a mid 60's horn, was purchased from an estate of a trumpet player who used it in Pennsylvania lounge playing. It has an X stamped at the end of the serial number, indicating it was a special order. From some articles I read years ago, that indicated a custom order, and almost always it was a special Coprion bell. It is hard to say, but it appears to have a copper sheen down the pipe, and is a bit richer in tone than the preious 38A. My late 50's 36B (no trigger or slide stop rods) looks kind of brassy down there.

Several years back, I had 28A that had coprion bell and leadpipe with NO NICKEL on the bell or leadpipe, but was clearly roll engraved CONNSTELLATION on the bell and had a trigger, as I recall. The serial number ended in a "V" that was scratched in. That, I have read, indicates a "Factory Second" Instrument. It played a lot like the 10A Victor long model cornet I had back in the 1990's. It was certainly a mystery. Tone was good, and it was enjoyable, but I have never warmed up to the small bore cornets.
'
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[jhellerstein]

To add to this story a bit, I am just parting ways this week with this extremely cool 28B. I would never dissect it, but it seems to be a custom-ordered copper or coprion version with custom engraving. The Conn Loyalist saw the pix and used the term coprion, so I'll take her word for it.

Anyhow, it has passed through my hands now and onto a new enthusiast. Really cool horn.

_________________
"When you hear music, after it's over, it's gone in the air. You can never capture it again." -- Dolphy

[taylordiving]

Omg jhellerstein, how could you possibly part ways with a beauty like that???
_________________
Calicchio 1s7
Yamaha 8310Z
Reynolds Leonard Smith Contempora
1941 & 1942 Olds Supers
Getzen Eterna Cornet
Yamaha 8315G Flugel

[jhellerstein]

[razeontherock]

[razeontherock]

[jhellerstein]

[taylordiving]