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Is a $280 New Bach Stradivarius Trumpet too good to be true?


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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly Trent's point is to warn people that just because it says "Bach Stradivarius" on the bell doesn't mean it really is authentic and that if seems too good to be true it usually isn't true.

However, another point made by the video is that an excellent player can sound great on any decent trumpet in good working condition. There is no question that this fake "Bach" vastly exceeds the abilities of any beginning player. So, is there any reason to think it's not adequate for a beginning player? Of course, mechanical reliability is an important consideration but does anyone have any actual experience with this horn in terms of it's mechanical reliability or are people just imputing to this horn their experience with other Chinese made horns or otherwise just making assumptions?

Trent says that this horn doesn't have the sound of a real Bach Strad. I'm sure he would know, he has a lot of hands on experience. However, does the horn sound bad in the video? Personally, I think it sounds at least OK in the video. Is the sound of a real Bach Strad worth ten times the cost of this horn? It might be for professionals who have the skill to make a Bach Strad sound the way a Bach Strad is supposed to sound. For the basic player, however, it's an interesting question.

When I travel I take a horn from my collection with me because I play jam sessions everywhere I go every opportunity I get. I don't want to carry the horn with me at all times and so I always worry about the horn being stolen out of a hotel room. For that reason I usually take one of my least valuable trumpets. It's tempting to get something like this for traveling because if it's stolen it's a minimal financial loss compared to a collector's horn. Something for me to think about.
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PDXbugler
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Clearly Trent's point is to warn people that just because it says "Bach Stradivarius" on the bell doesn't mean it really is authentic and that if seems too good to be true it usually isn't true.

However, another point made by the video is that an excellent player can sound great on any decent trumpet in good working condition. There is no question that this fake "Bach" vastly exceeds the abilities of any beginning player. So, is there any reason to think it's not adequate for a beginning player? Of course, mechanical reliability is an important consideration but does anyone have any actual experience with this horn in terms of it's mechanical reliability or are people just imputing to this horn their experience with other Chinese made horns or otherwise just making assumptions?

Trent says that this horn doesn't have the sound of a real Bach Strad. I'm sure he would know, he has a lot of hands on experience. However, does the horn sound bad in the video? Personally, I think it sounds at least OK in the video. Is the sound of a real Bach Strad worth ten times the cost of this horn? It might be for professionals who have the skill to make a Bach Strad sound the way a Bach Strad is supposed to sound. For the basic player, however, it's an interesting question.

When I travel I take a horn from my collection with me because I play jam sessions everywhere I go every opportunity I get. I don't want to carry the horn with me at all times and so I always worry about the horn being stolen out of a hotel room. For that reason I usually take one of my least valuable trumpets. It's tempting to get something like this for traveling because if it's stolen it's a minimal financial loss compared to a collector's horn. Something for me to think about.


Excellent points and questions. Thank you.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Clearly Trent's point is to warn people that just because it says "Bach Stradivarius" on the bell doesn't mean it really is authentic and that if seems too good to be true it usually isn't true.

However, another point made by the video is that an excellent player can sound great on any decent trumpet in good working condition. There is no question that this fake "Bach" vastly exceeds the abilities of any beginning player. So, is there any reason to think it's not adequate for a beginning player? Of course, mechanical reliability is an important consideration but does anyone have any actual experience with this horn in terms of it's mechanical reliability or are people just imputing to this horn their experience with other Chinese made horns or otherwise just making assumptions?

Trent says that this horn doesn't have the sound of a real Bach Strad. I'm sure he would know, he has a lot of hands on experience. However, does the horn sound bad in the video? Personally, I think it sounds at least OK in the video. Is the sound of a real Bach Strad worth ten times the cost of this horn? It might be for professionals who have the skill to make a Bach Strad sound the way a Bach Strad is supposed to sound. For the basic player, however, it's an interesting question.

When I travel I take a horn from my collection with me because I play jam sessions everywhere I go every opportunity I get. I don't want to carry the horn with me at all times and so I always worry about the horn being stolen out of a hotel room. For that reason I usually take one of my least valuable trumpets. It's tempting to get something like this for traveling because if it's stolen it's a minimal financial loss compared to a collector's horn. Something for me to think about.


I disagree.
I have no idea whether this counterfeit plays adequately or not, haven’t played it. But is I was looking for an inexpensive horn to use as you stated, I would rather find something like an Olds Ambassador for the same money. Besides the fact that I happen to believe counterfeiting anything is unethical.

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
The answer is yes. I had one come into the shop the other day. It was a TR300 Chinese-made clone with additional numbers and letters on the mouthpiece receiver, and it had the Bach logo on the bell. I don't know if it was a Conn-Selmer product for sure, but there were enough recognizable parts that I think it was.


The TR-300H2 is the current variation and is made at Conn-Selmer Eastlake with the bell being made at Bach Elkhart. In 2009, for about a year, the TR-300 (not sure of the suffix) was made in China for Bach before its return to US production.

I believe it is the only US-made student level Bach.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Clearly Trent's point is to warn people that just because it says "Bach Stradivarius" on the bell doesn't mean it really is authentic and that if seems too good to be true it usually isn't true.

However, another point made by the video is that an excellent player can sound great on any decent trumpet in good working condition. There is no question that this fake "Bach" vastly exceeds the abilities of any beginning player. So, is there any reason to think it's not adequate for a beginning player? Of course, mechanical reliability is an important consideration but does anyone have any actual experience with this horn in terms of it's mechanical reliability or are people just imputing to this horn their experience with other Chinese made horns or otherwise just making assumptions?

Trent says that this horn doesn't have the sound of a real Bach Strad. I'm sure he would know, he has a lot of hands on experience. However, does the horn sound bad in the video? Personally, I think it sounds at least OK in the video. Is the sound of a real Bach Strad worth ten times the cost of this horn? It might be for professionals who have the skill to make a Bach Strad sound the way a Bach Strad is supposed to sound. For the basic player, however, it's an interesting question.

When I travel I take a horn from my collection with me because I play jam sessions everywhere I go every opportunity I get. I don't want to carry the horn with me at all times and so I always worry about the horn being stolen out of a hotel room. For that reason I usually take one of my least valuable trumpets. It's tempting to get something like this for traveling because if it's stolen it's a minimal financial loss compared to a collector's horn. Something for me to think about.


I disagree.
I have no idea whether this counterfeit plays adequately or not, haven’t played it. But is I was looking for an inexpensive horn to use as you stated, I would rather find something like an Olds Ambassador for the same money. Besides the fact that I happen to believe counterfeiting anything is unethical.

Brad


I didn't say "this." I said "something like this." I agree that counterfeiting is unethical and should not be rewarded.

I do have a beat up Olds Ambassador cornet. Technically it would work. That's something for me to consider, too.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grune wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
PDXbugler wrote:
Brad361 wrote:

I believe his purpose here is to point out a counterfeit horn, not how it’s sound compares to something that’s better built.


I also feel the intention of the video is to point out that it's a counterfeit, but if it weren't labeled Bach, it might be considered an adequate trumpet.

Brad361 wrote:

I would need to play one myself to make that determination, and I have no interest in a counterfeit Bach, or a counterfeit anything else.


We should all be trying a trumpet before trashing it, simply because it's a brand with which we're unfamiliar or it's made in China.
I've read several old posts mentioning that at one time Yamaha's quality wasn't up to par. If we're wearing blinders, we'll miss the diamond in the coal mine.


Aside from alloy problems in the early years, which resulted in pipes rotting out over time, Yamaha never made anything remotely as bad as the flood of junk we're seeing now from China. And unfortunately, based on my experience in working on many of them, Yamaha's student model trumpets have declined in quality from the days of the YTR2320.

The sound of an instrument is a highly subjective judgement - how it's built is not. If it falls apart or deteriorates before its time, there's a reason.


The Chinese are in the market for business reasons, solely. The "flood" is not created by the producers, but by the distributors and consumers. If demand were to cease, so would the flood.

The comparison to Yamaha is relevant only in the sense Yamaha trumpets were, at commencement, targeted to the student market, and Yamaha had teething problems. But Yamaha decided at the outset the Yamaha brand would, one day, be a recognised, valued brand world-wide. The past 45 years prove their trials and success.

The Chinese have no such goals: why bother, when the real profits are in the segment you can compete best? Can the Chinese make better horns? Yes. Will they? No. Why put yourself in a ring only to be knocked-out by much stronger opponents? True, many Chinese-made horns are not worth the price, as inflated by the middle-men. The Chinese do care about their products and channels - all the way to their banks!

The general rule is caveat emptor.


Yamaha's student trumpets have declined in quality, IMO, in part, because they have them made in China. The price difference has made many price-conscious parents choose Yamaha over Getzen in our area. I know this from talking to dealers. But the decline started before that with the changes designed into the YTR2335. It's all about reducing manufacturing costs, not increasing quality.

And Yamaha is the best of the lot coming from the mainland!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
grune wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
PDXbugler wrote:
Brad361 wrote:

I believe his purpose here is to point out a counterfeit horn, not how it’s sound compares to something that’s better built.


I also feel the intention of the video is to point out that it's a counterfeit, but if it weren't labeled Bach, it might be considered an adequate trumpet.

Brad361 wrote:

I would need to play one myself to make that determination, and I have no interest in a counterfeit Bach, or a counterfeit anything else.


We should all be trying a trumpet before trashing it, simply because it's a brand with which we're unfamiliar or it's made in China.
I've read several old posts mentioning that at one time Yamaha's quality wasn't up to par. If we're wearing blinders, we'll miss the diamond in the coal mine.


Aside from alloy problems in the early years, which resulted in pipes rotting out over time, Yamaha never made anything remotely as bad as the flood of junk we're seeing now from China. And unfortunately, based on my experience in working on many of them, Yamaha's student model trumpets have declined in quality from the days of the YTR2320.

The sound of an instrument is a highly subjective judgement - how it's built is not. If it falls apart or deteriorates before its time, there's a reason.


The Chinese are in the market for business reasons, solely. The "flood" is not created by the producers, but by the distributors and consumers. If demand were to cease, so would the flood.

The comparison to Yamaha is relevant only in the sense Yamaha trumpets were, at commencement, targeted to the student market, and Yamaha had teething problems. But Yamaha decided at the outset the Yamaha brand would, one day, be a recognised, valued brand world-wide. The past 45 years prove their trials and success.

The Chinese have no such goals: why bother, when the real profits are in the segment you can compete best? Can the Chinese make better horns? Yes. Will they? No. Why put yourself in a ring only to be knocked-out by much stronger opponents? True, many Chinese-made horns are not worth the price, as inflated by the middle-men. The Chinese do care about their products and channels - all the way to their banks!

The general rule is caveat emptor.


Yamaha's student trumpets have declined in quality, IMO, in part, because they have them made in China. The price difference has made many price-conscious parents choose Yamaha over Getzen in our area. I know this from talking to dealers. But the decline started before that with the changes designed into the YTR2335. It's all about reducing manufacturing costs, not increasing quality.

And Yamaha is the best of the lot coming from the mainland!



uh, have you been to Yahama of Japan and China, to make a valid comparison and comment?

Opinion without a factual basis has no value. I may disagree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it.

The FACT is Yamaha saw the "writing on the wall" and decided to do something (anything) to compete in the student segment, or be locked out by stronger, new competitors. Yamaha thus decided to downgrade its quality, thus to be price competitive. The downgrade is caused by decision, not caused by "made in China".

We have a global industry and market. The key issue is not where a product is made, but by whom and how it was made. FACT: Yamaha trumpets made-in-china are engineered and made by staff fully trained by Yamaha of Japan and using all the tech imported from Japan. FACT: the China plant is the more modern of the two!

If the product result is, IYO, less than ideal, your attention should be directed to criticising the decision makers within Yamaha, not to smearing the people within the country of manufacture.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really drifting off topic. Question, should a Bach priced at less than 10% of normal be expected to be decent? Common sense says no.

As for China, this is a region of the world that had a centuries old reputation for artistic and craft excellence when Europeans were still painting themselves blue and fighting with pointy sticks to determine who would win the right to fight the Romans next. BUT, it is also an economic culture that transformed from a controlled system to an uncontrolled free market in the mode of the US in the mid 19th century. The US eventually moved on (rejecting the system of graft and patronage inherent in the absence of regulatory constraints) to a regulated economy. China has not.

Can a Chinese firm produce high quality - of course, and some do. Are there socio-economic drivers incentivizing the opposite there? Yes, and many ventures produce product in line with that. Its not about the country or the people, its a matter of tendencies inherent in a political and economic system still evolving, and only a trend, not an absolute.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"If the product result is, IYO, less than ideal, your attention should be directed to criticising the decision makers within Yamaha, not to smearing the people within the country of manufacture."

I talked with a Yamaha bigwig at ITG last year, who shall remain nameless, and he swore that everything was the same in the Chinese plant making the horns as the Japanese plant. Yet my observation from my personal experience in working on the horns, dozens of them, is that the quality has declined further. It has been so irritating in some instances that I've come close to saying I won't work on them, but not yet.

That is not smearing anyone, it's making observations based on my experience.
IMO, the Chinese manufacturing industry makes good-looking instruments that have unknown problems that reveal themselves in unexpected ways. They simply aren't there yet in terms of their skills and knowledge.

I'm sure the day is coming when they will get there.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
"If the product result is, IYO, less than ideal, your attention should be directed to criticising the decision makers within Yamaha, not to smearing the people within the country of manufacture."

I talked with a Yamaha bigwig at ITG last year, who shall remain nameless, and he swore that everything was the same in the Chinese plant making the horns as the Japanese plant. Yet my observation from my personal experience in working on the horns, dozens of them, is that the quality has declined further. It has been so irritating in some instances that I've come close to saying I won't work on them, but not yet.

That is not smearing anyone, it's making observations based on my experience.
IMO, the Chinese manufacturing industry makes good-looking instruments that have unknown problems that reveal themselves in unexpected ways. They simply aren't there yet in terms of their skills and knowledge.

I'm sure the day is coming when they will get there.


I have a lot of experience with the current Yamaha student horns, the local (which is also national) music store chain uses them for student beginner rentals, and the school system where I teach lessons uses them exclusively.
I am certainly no tech, but especially the valves on many of these instruments are very “finicky”, meaning, if they are not very frequently oiled, cleaned and played with good hand/finger position (none of which most kids do), they are marginal at best. Sluggish to the point of being sticky. The music store seems to blame the above mentioned problems on the kids, and that’s valid to a point, but IMO these Yamaha student horns are simply more troublesome than most were years ago. In addition, to me they just feel “cheap”; valve caps are thin in construction and difficult to thread, for example.

Brad
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
"If the product result is, IYO, less than ideal, your attention should be directed to criticising the decision makers within Yamaha, not to smearing the people within the country of manufacture."

I talked with a Yamaha bigwig at ITG last year, who shall remain nameless, and he swore that everything was the same in the Chinese plant making the horns as the Japanese plant. Yet my observation from my personal experience in working on the horns, dozens of them, is that the quality has declined further. It has been so irritating in some instances that I've come close to saying I won't work on them, but not yet.

That is not smearing anyone, it's making observations based on my experience.
IMO, the Chinese manufacturing industry makes good-looking instruments that have unknown problems that reveal themselves in unexpected ways. They simply aren't there yet in terms of their skills and knowledge.

I'm sure the day is coming when they will get there.


I have a lot of experience with the current Yamaha student horns, the local (which is also national) music store chain uses them for student beginner rentals, and the school system where I teach lessons uses them exclusively.
I am certainly no tech, but especially the valves on many of these instruments are very “finicky”, meaning, if they are not very frequently oiled, cleaned and played with good hand/finger position (none of which most kids do), they are marginal at best. Sluggish to the point of being sticky. The music store seems to blame the above mentioned problems on the kids, and that’s valid to a point, but IMO these Yamaha student horns are simply more troublesome than most were years ago. In addition, to me they just feel “cheap”; valve caps are thin in construction and difficult to thread, for example.

Brad


Try Hetman #2 for your kid's trumpets. The valve problems got so bad for my colleague here at the store doing rentals that we have gone to that oil for ALL student Yamahas. The older ones have the plating flaking off the valves, which causes roughness and sticking. The newer ones, well, there's no excuse, they simply aren't that well made.

-Lionel
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
"If the product result is, IYO, less than ideal, your attention should be directed to criticising the decision makers within Yamaha, not to smearing the people within the country of manufacture."

I talked with a Yamaha bigwig at ITG last year, who shall remain nameless, and he swore that everything was the same in the Chinese plant making the horns as the Japanese plant. Yet my observation from my personal experience in working on the horns, dozens of them, is that the quality has declined further. It has been so irritating in some instances that I've come close to saying I won't work on them, but not yet.

That is not smearing anyone, it's making observations based on my experience.
IMO, the Chinese manufacturing industry makes good-looking instruments that have unknown problems that reveal themselves in unexpected ways. They simply aren't there yet in terms of their skills and knowledge.

I'm sure the day is coming when they will get there.


I have a lot of experience with the current Yamaha student horns, the local (which is also national) music store chain uses them for student beginner rentals, and the school system where I teach lessons uses them exclusively.
I am certainly no tech, but especially the valves on many of these instruments are very “finicky”, meaning, if they are not very frequently oiled, cleaned and played with good hand/finger position (none of which most kids do), they are marginal at best. Sluggish to the point of being sticky. The music store seems to blame the above mentioned problems on the kids, and that’s valid to a point, but IMO these Yamaha student horns are simply more troublesome than most were years ago. In addition, to me they just feel “cheap”; valve caps are thin in construction and difficult to thread, for example.

Brad


Try Hetman #2 for your kid's trumpets. The valve problems got so bad for my colleague here at the store doing rentals that we have gone to that oil for ALL student Yamahas. The older ones have the plating flaking off the valves, which causes roughness and sticking. The newer ones, well, there's no excuse, they simply aren't that well made.

-Lionel


Thanks, I’ll give that a try!

Brad
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
I have a lot of experience with the current Yamaha student horns, the local (which is also national) music store chain uses them for student beginner rentals, and the school system where I teach lessons uses them exclusively.
I am certainly no tech, but especially the valves on many of these instruments are very “finicky”, meaning, if they are not very frequently oiled, cleaned and played with good hand/finger position (none of which most kids do), they are marginal at best. Sluggish to the point of being sticky. The music store seems to blame the above mentioned problems on the kids, and that’s valid to a point, but IMO these Yamaha student horns are simply more troublesome than most were years ago. In addition, to me they just feel “cheap”; valve caps are thin in construction and difficult to thread, for example.

Brad

Weren't some of these issues also raised about older Yamaha student instruments?

I just remember people talking about older Yamaha student horns playing well, but not being as sturdy (as say a Bundy or TR300, or Ambassador) and the valves being more fussy and needing care and good hand position. I really recall having this discussion about Yamaha student horns about 15-20 years ago and these same points being brought up.

I'm not bringing this up to rebut the statements above exactly, but it made me wonder.

Also, my mid-late 80's Yamaha 2310 cornet seems very well made, but it has been very well cared for.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wrap-up:

1/ I am entirely against counterfeit anything, and try however I can to dissuade this. If people stopped buying fakes, the fakes would stop.

2/ If Yamaha quality has eroded, this has nothing to do with made-in-china, but everything to do with Yamaha management deliberately making and then passing low quality horns into the USA and elsewhere, so to exploit consumers. If consumers stopped buying low quality, Yamaha would increase the quality: assuredly, after 45 years of building, Yamaha does not want to lose market share.

3/ Just because people in this forum, who all seem to be based in the USA, see only "junk" coming from China, does not mean all products in China are junk.

It means only what you see.

The Chinese can and do make much better horns than what you see currently in your local area. But likely you may never see the better horns reach your area, as these would need to sell at much higher prices [re middle men] than the "junk" you see now, which would then be in direct competition to entrenched brands, which could result in zero sales volume for the better Chinese horns. Again, trumpets are now a very commercial product.

IF consumers want better, they must direct their attentions/protests to the correct causes and be willing to accept the likely increase in prices.

- regards,
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gcorder
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:49 am    Post subject: fake strad on ebay? Reply with quote

Is this a fake? zoom in on the bell and look at the engraving.

link
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It look like the real thing, but zero feedback
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oups ! i think also it's fake the engraving of ELKHART USA is very strange , as done by hand and not well done
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the font typeset/style are different from a typical bach, too
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grune wrote:
wrap-up:
........3/ Just because people in this forum, who all seem to be based in the USA, see only "junk" coming from China, does not mean all products in China are junk.

It means only what you see.

The Chinese can and do make much better horns than what you see currently in your local area. But likely you may never see the better horns reach your area, as these would need to sell at much higher prices [re middle men] than the "junk" you see now, which would then be in direct competition to entrenched brands, which could result in zero sales volume for the better Chinese horns. Again, trumpets are now a very commercial product.

IF consumers want better, they must direct their attentions/protests to the correct causes and be willing to accept the likely increase in prices.

- regards,


In addition to your “wrap up”:

I don’t believe that trumpets are any more a “commercial product”now than they were fifty years ago. The instrument market is still dominated by guitars, keys and percussion, we can thank the Beatles, at least in part, for that. The market for brass instruments continues to be student/school music programs, that has not changed, at least in my experience (I started as a beginner in 1964).

I don’t know which Chinese made trumpets you see in your area, but in mine you don’t see them at all, the vast majority of what I see in the hands of a few uninformed students was purchased on line, usually by a well intentioned parent or grandparent. And the majority of what I do see is very poor quality, and that certainly DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERY HORN MADE IN CHINA is junk. Carol Brass (ok, Taiwan, it’s close) trumpets are very well made and play (I’ve owned four) very well. IMO.

Speaking only for myself, I am well aware that not every Chinese manufactured instrument is junk, but a large percentage of them are. Is that changing? Maybe? Probably? Let’s hope so, but I seriously doubt that any consumers directing complaints to the companies who build TSOs is going to make the slightest difference.

Brad
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"I always try but, not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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Joined: 30 Jan 2018
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Location: East Asia

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a trumpet being sold on Taiwan's version of ebay for around $70 that uses both strad and tr500 language.
https://goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21818975345115

The mystery I've had for China and Taiwan is that it seems like someone other than Carol, Jinbao, and Jupiter would have set themselves up as good, reliable makers of student trumpets under one name. The fake bach above is different than other fake bachs. I would not risk it, even for a junker trumpet, because the range is so broad on these instruments. Some are clearly made using the same factories putting out instruments for reputable makers and others come with rust flakes and uneven soldering and poor quality metal. I guess that ACB, Dillons, and others must have factories they work with directly to weed out poorer quality materials.
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