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One horn gets wet every six bars. The other dry all night.



 
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject: One horn gets wet every six bars. The other dry all night. Reply with quote

I admit to buying a cheap Chinese trumpet about three years ago. Bought it because my main ax, a Kanstul needed a lot if cosmetic work. Heck it sounded great but was butt ugly. An embarrassment to just hold. So? I bought a cheapo Chinese horn while I had repairs done on my main ax.

I'm very happy with my Chinese ax. Am accepting it for what it is. Not concerned about how it falls short of other more expensive horns. Oh heck I could use that Chinese horn at any gig and not sound out of place. It is a "good enough" ax which on balance is a fine thing. Just one nuisance?

Every 6 to 8 bars I must empty the water key!! No other ax has ever done this to me. Just today I practiced a Yamaha E flat Tpt of mine. Stayed bone dry whole rehearsal. Then played my Kanstul B flat. Needed the water key emptied twice.

Then I fooled around on my Chinese baby. As usual? Every 8 to 10 bars I needed to drain the damned thing. Could this be an alloy in the lead pipe causing the problem? Some special combination of metals making the brass convert more humidity to liquid water?

Hey I actually like this cheap little thing. Plays high notes very accurately. However if it keeps running like Niagra Falls? I may just shelve it and always use my Kanstul eh?
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps this is due to a translation error? The spec in English stated they wanted a fluent sound and when translated...

Seriously I don’t know but am curious what people think.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the resistance is a bit higher on the cheap horn, it is probably a matter of turbulence in the raceway encouraging condensation.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
If the resistance is a bit higher on the cheap horn, it is probably a matter of turbulence in the raceway encouraging condensation.


Noted. The Chinese horn runs at about .460. Medium large or so. While my Kanstul is a fatboy at .464. The main difference between the two is that the Kanstul with the truly large bore plays noticeably louder in the lower register.

What is esp disconcerting abt this water matter is that the valve doesn't like to release the fluid immediately upon command. It prefers that I pull the slide all the way out and then dump it. This a major distraction while sight-reading or even just counting rests.
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"It is surprising how skilled you can become on a very limited (trumpet) embouchure and how many years you can play on that and then how difficult it is to correct that once you find that it is tremendously limited". Bill Moriarty, 2005
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Flip Oakes
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could also be that when they drilled the water key holes, the drill wasn't sharp, and there are shards of brass pushed up around the inside of the tubing, not allowing the water to come cleanly out of the water key hole. I have seen this a lot on many horns no matter of the make or brand.

Take Care,
Flip
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omelet
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am skeptical about it being resistance or flow effects since there is a pretty slow movement of air in the horn.
The thickness or material properties of the tubing could increase the heat transfer thru it and result in more condensation, but it is probably not much of a difference.
There will be some moisture build up no matter what and if you're pulling slides because the water key doesn't cut it then it might just be that it is not working as said above.
You might not realize how much empties from your other horn and only notice this one because it's a pain. You could try to quantify it by playing a set period of time and comparing the amount that comes out when you dump both slides.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is probably happening is that you aren't really getting all the water out of the horn when you try to do that. If the exit hole for the water is obstructed or too small the horn won't fully drain. So, when you start playing again you're already halfway to needing to drain it again. That really is the only logical explanation.

I have this same issue if an Amado gets clogged. When I activate the Amado water comes out but it's hard to drain and usually leaves water in the horn.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be explained by high efficiency of that particular horn:
Spit Collector Horns from a Thermodynamic Point of View

'In summary, a "spit collector" horn is likely efficient in translating the player's energy into sound.'
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s a well known fact that playing repeatedly and on an extended basis above double C causes excess condensation in the horn, so take it 8vb, man!

KIDDING!!🤣

Brad
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
What is probably happening is that you aren't really getting all the water out of the horn when you try to do that. If the exit hole for the water is obstructed or too small the horn won't fully drain. So, when you start playing again you're already halfway to needing to drain it again. That really is the only logical explanation.

I have this same issue if an Amado gets clogged. When I activate the Amado water comes out but it's hard to drain and usually leaves water in the horn.


It's not that I enjoy contradicting people but... In this case I am absolutely certain that all the water is bring released from the instrument. This is because I will nearly always pull the whole danged tuning slide out instead of relying just upon the water key.

The only time Ive seen Jon Faddis he did this too. Pulled the whole danged slide out every time there was noticeable amounts of water in his "machine". And yet he kinda had to do this. Why? His horn had no water key!

See? By removing the water key and sealing off the hole? You too can start playing triple C!

All kidding aside however? He must have felt that a water key interrupted something in his tone or intonayion etc. Thus he opted out of the convenience of having a handy water key.
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"It is surprising how skilled you can become on a very limited (trumpet) embouchure and how many years you can play on that and then how difficult it is to correct that once you find that it is tremendously limited". Bill Moriarty, 2005
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
What is probably happening is that you aren't really getting all the water out of the horn when you try to do that. If the exit hole for the water is obstructed or too small the horn won't fully drain. So, when you start playing again you're already halfway to needing to drain it again. That really is the only logical explanation.

I have this same issue if an Amado gets clogged. When I activate the Amado water comes out but it's hard to drain and usually leaves water in the horn.


It's not that I enjoy contradicting people but... In this case I am absolutely certain that all the water is bring released from the instrument. This is because I will nearly always pull the whole danged tuning slide out instead of relying just upon the water key.

The only time Ive seen Jon Faddis he did this too. Pulled the whole danged slide out every time there was noticeable amounts of water in his "machine". And yet he kinda had to do this. Why? His horn had no water key!

See? By removing the water key and sealing off the hole? You too can start playing triple C!

All kidding aside however? He must have felt that a water key interrupted something in his tone or intonayion etc. Thus he opted out of the convenience of having a handy water key.


Removing the tuning slide and dumping out all the water in that slide doesn't remove all the water from the horn. There can still be a lot of water in other sections of the horn. How this creates or affects your situation is something on which I can only speculate. I just mention it to raise another possibility about what is happening.

That being said, maybe the design of the horn causes water to pool in the tuning slide rather than having at least some of the water pass through the horn. If that's the case one possible solution is to install a water key that is always draining. I don't remember the name of this type of water key but there definitely is such a thing and the promotional materials claim that it does not affect the playing characteristics of the horn.

My understanding of Faddis not having water keys is that he was of the opinion that irregularities in the tubing created negative issues in the playing characteristics of the horn. At one time players were using this same concept to explain a preference for Amado water keys instead of conventional lever water keys. The concept was that the drain hole for an Amado type is less disruptive to the airflow than the drain hole for a conventional lever type. This may still be a common explanation.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad valve alignment in the cheap horn may induce collected moisture to remain in the leadpipe instead of being blown further into the instrument. Burbling is more evident when the water collects in the leadpipe.

And the cheap brass alloy in the horn may stay cooler, inducing more condensation.
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