Valve alignments, makes a real difference?

[improver]

Does a valve alignment make a difference? How much does it improve the blow and playability? Is it something you can do yourself with pads and felts?

[lipshurt]

Yes and yes
Easy to do yourself. Takes an ounce of brainpower, access to thin spacers of various thickness. Many ways to get spacers:

Make them with a paper punch and scissors. Thickesses you will need are .005, .010. .020. Materials can be plastic, like hotel keys, laminated ID cards, plastic sheet, etc.
UPSTOKES:
Usually if your horn alignment is off, it will be because the original felts have compressed. Keep those same felts and add a spacer. It could take up tp .035 to get back to the right thickness.

DOWNSTROKES: here its a bit more complicated but for Bach horns with rubber inserts in the top caps, those don’t compress, so it will keep its original downstroke alignment, which still need to be improved. You will need some little shims to go between the stem and button to get more downstroke. To raise the downstroke you can add a shim under the rubber. Herder to make though cuz you can’t use a paper punch. Use a gasket punch set. Cheap is ok.

To determine the alignment you need a mirror on a stick or an iPhone/iPad endoscope (30 bucks) and those work pretty good. Use the 90 degree angle mirror they come with. The picture is a little blurry but good enough to see if the edges line up in there.

$30 endoscope
$3 paper punch
$3 for .005, .010., .020 shims from McMaster/Carr to go under button
Ounce of brainpower can be hard to find but it’s transferable from one person to another, so ask around
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[JayKosta]

First - test all the valve combinations, do any of them seem to work really well - with good clean/clear sound?

Then check and compare the other valve combinations - which positions are least satisfactory?

For the unsatisfactory positions, try moving the valve very slightly up or down, and see if you can detect an improvement or worsening.

For a DIY attempt, I suggest basing changes from actual playing - not from viewing mechanical alignment. An experienced tech who has lots of experience might recognize the mechanical alignment that would give good results, and that makes it quicker to do the job. But in the end, the final criteria is 'how it plays' - NOT how it looks or measures.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[LittleRusty]

[Jon_Manness]

The washers from http://www.jlsmithco.com/valve-washers can get your alignment pretty darn close. I used ID's 700585 (1/64"), 700587 (1/32"), and 700591 (1/16") for my Conn 22b. I use my iPhone to eyeball, but it does become a "feel" thing, especially as you adjust the upstroke by 1/64".

As for what valve alignments do, they open the sound and improve intonation. I like to check my high E's and F's while fine-tuning to make sure those are slotting where I expect them to be.
_________________
Jon Manness
Stomvi VR-II Big Bell
Stomvi Master
Stomvi Elite Copper Flugel
'37 Conn 80a Cornet
'42 Conn 22b Trumpet
Stomvi-USA Mouthpieces

[JayKosta]

If you start removing the various felts / corks / spacers / etc., BE SURE to keep them separated based on their original location on each specific valve.

And a WARNING, depending on the age of the horn, there's a good chance that something might be broken or torn in the process of removal or reinstall. So be prepared with a good supply of replacements, or the material and tools to make them.

From personal experience ... there are many 'Oh @#$%' moments with DIY !

An amateur practices until he gets it 'right', a pro practices until he can't get it 'wrong'.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[TrumpetMD]

[lipshurt]

People argue for different reasons I guess sometimes just to pass the time, or out lack of knowledge but:

Alignments should be mechanically right. There is no other situation that will make a horn play better. Sometimes there may be a mechanical situation where getting one surface lined up makes another surface worse and then there will need to be a compromise. Those are pretty rare though.

Getting within 1/64 is pretty good but not quite good enough. That is .012 which is not bad you can notice a horn that’s .012 out .

I suppose it’s possible that a player could get the horn aligned and then won’t like it. (assuming that the alignment actually improved the alignment) That does not mean it was better out of alignment, it just means that that player does not like that horn.

Really proper alignment jobs should include adjusting the abutting surfaces by machining so that one standard pad material which doesn’t not compress can be used in each valve and not need any shims. That way you get a few sets of pads and have a lifetime of easily restored proper alignments. You pay one time. That is your basic reeves alignment but others can do it too.

In any event it’s not a question of if it should be done
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[JayKosta]

[Jon_Manness]

[TrumpetMD]

[Jon_Manness]

I would gladly use thinner pads than 1/64 if they were available, but I couldn't find the proper ID and OD dimensions of pads for the 22b. I would also experiment with loosening each top valve cap so the valve would sit higher, as well as slightly depress each valve to hear if the sound is better or worse.

For me, I got it close enough and the horn rips!!!

[James Becker]

As one of several that do valve alignments professionaly, the feedback from our customers is invaluable. Also worth pointing out, the degree of measuable deviations can vary widely from a matter of a few thousanths of an inch up to .020", .030", .040" or more. It's been our experience that accomplished players are able to detect corrections as little as .005", so it can be difficult to say with certainty how much improvement a player is going to experience without our measurements. What we do know is what our customers tell us, and that is our alignments work for them. Otherwise why would they continue to return again and again or refer fellow trumpet players our way for service.

In addition, every valve alignment card on file includes mouthpipe venturi and receiver gap measurements in order to document if your intrument is within design specifications. We also perform a free valve seal test to determine if leakage is effecting your instrument's playability.

Ultimately, it comes down to taking into account everything that contributes in order to optimize your playing experience. No guess work or "flying blind".

My two cents.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[Tritone]

[James Becker]

Very recently during a visit to have his Bach C serviced, retired Metropolitan Opera trumpeter, Jim Pandolfi, selected a new Bach 190S37. Accompanied by Boston Pops trumpeter, Rich Kelley listening. After selecting his new trumpet Jim asked me to “do that thing you do”. They played the most amazing duets while I worked. When I completed blueprinting, Jim played his new Bach Bb again for Rich. Both, without exaggeration, agreed Jim’s new Bb demonstrated greater ease of play and evenness across registers. Witnessing these two world class players reenforced the validity of our work. As a result Rich ordered the identical model Bach 190S37 with our full blueprint service.

We where blessed to have players like these two in our shop. Hearing firsthand before and after our adjustments made it all worthwhile.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[shofarguy]

On the subject of bing objective:

Back a number of years, I was trying to put together a project with Byron Autrey and would talk with him weekly. During those conversations on the phone, I tried to gain as much knowledge as I could by asking leading questions that would give Byron a rabbit path on which to relay experiences and discoveries.

In one such conversation, Byron talked about how he had developed what he called "a neutral embouchure." What he meant was that he could play any style horn and all of the design variations equally. So, whether it was a trumpet with a lot of resistance up front or one that allowed the player to blow through the horn, whether it was a trumpet, flugelhorn or cornet, he had purposefully developed the ability to play that style of instrument optimally.

He also told me that a development player only has the first 15 seconds of play to make assessments. After that, the subconscious brain kicks in and begins to make adjustments to the player's approach to the instrument in order to "move" its response toward the player's optimum. This understanding meant that Byron was able to assess more accurately, the actual changes made to any given horn. He not only understood instrument dynamics, but also player dynamics.

The same sort of thing happens when we listen. One of the things we both had in common was the ability to dissect timbre into frequency ranges and asses the overtone series for strengths and weaknesses. When he talked about these kinds of things, I could relate to what he said.

All this is to say that the skills needed for accurately analyzing what goes on when playing an instrument are separate from the skills needed to actually play the instrument well. I have had conversations with some pretty good top-call musicians who could not tell me what was happening or what they heard beyond rudimentary observations like "core," intonation, slotting and the like. Others could describe more in-depth characteristics, but perhaps didn't play as well and certainly didn't have the same level of fame.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[James Becker]

The notion that some have it and some do not possess the ability to tell the difference, or a select few have the knowledge of how thing works clouds this discussion.

The feed back we've receive from players has been overwhelming in favor of our blueprinting/alignment services.

To paraphrase Tom Rolfs when I was trying to explain what I intended to to do to his trumpet, "Stop, I don't want to know, I don't need to know, I just want to play it." A truly refreshing remark by arguably one of the finest trumpet players today.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[shofarguy]

James,

My comment was directed toward the idea that a person cannot "objectively" tell whether a change to a horn had an effect or not, without a double-blind test or some other "scientific" method. I tried to point out that listening, feeling and playing are different sets of skills that can be individually developed.

I certainly don't play trumpet as well as Byron Autrey did or as well as Flip Oakes does, but I am able to hear how a horn and player are interacting and describe with good accuracy what the player is feeling. I can identify changes in sound and describe them in a manner that is useful to the player.

I'm saying that, yes, players will tend to hear what they believe they will hear, but a person can learn to extract desire from the senses and analyze what is actually going on, if they pursue those skills. It's similar to when a person decides to buy a certain model of car. All of a sudden those cars are everywhere! They were always there, but the person added interest and knowledge of what to look for and so begins to recognize what before was anonymous.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[James Becker]

Surely playing an instrument as neutral as possible allows for a less biased evaluation of characteristics.

Now turn that around, I like to think of alignments as making the trumpet neutral for the player. Making the sound path less disruptive allows for fewer undesirable standing waves that make for uneven response and timbre, and in some instances poor pitch. This way I am NOT imposing changes to the instrument's design "recipe", simply improving execution of the original design.

Here's an example of my blueprinting of a Bach Chicago C180L229*.

Piston misalignment before correction: #1 up +.018" down +.017", #2 up +.027" down +.014", #3 up +.026 down +.006"

Receiver gap .101" with my Bach 2C, .134" with brand new Symphonic Bach 1C. Well withing acceptable range +.030" or -.030" from factory target of .125"

Mouthpipe venturi .3498"

In the words of the owner "Hi James - you blueprinted my Bach Chicago C last week and I just wanted to thank you, what a difference!"
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[OldSchoolEuph]