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trombahonker
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Extremely insightful and well-described, experience-based information on on the subject. |
Don't believe everything you read. Especially "science" written by a non-scientist. |
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trompette229
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by trompette229 on Thu May 23, 2019 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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trumpet_cop
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | Extremely insightful and well-described, experience-based information on on the subject. |
Don't believe everything you read. Especially "science" written by a non-scientist. |
Just out of curiosity, what area of science do you work in to decry this as not scientific? I thought the information was pretty well laid out and sensible.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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I am a professional engineer.
Attempting to boil every explanation down to "air speed" is not sensible. There is simply more to it than that. Especially when air speed, anywhere is not shown to be measured.
There are reasons why players prefer more or less resistance in the instrument. But writing stuff that contradicts the known physics of air dynamics is not, as she wrote; "simple physics".
Increasing the cup volume affects the acoustics of the instrument. (Instrument being trumpet + mouthpiece). For an inefficient or inexperienced player this can be a problem due to the inefficiency of the player. Less of the player's air power becomes sound power. Or it may simply be a matter of preference.
As a player gains efficiency with skill, the self-resistance of the aperture decreases. The total resistance experienced by the player then is more dominantly from the instrument tone.
The more skilled player may then not prefer the higher acoustic resistance of a particular instrument and may move to a less resistive instrument. But the resistance variance of playable instruments is narrow. And a "free-blowing" instrument would not play.
(You can have a "free-pedaling" bicycle by removing the chain but you will not ever move from one place.)
But "air-speed" for air-speed's sake is not an asset, EVER. The slowest air speed possible for a given flow is always the most efficient.
The assumption that air-speed determines pitch is pure myth and hearsay. If you think it isn't then show me a study where air-speed is measured accurately, anywhere, in real-time while playing.
She also states that the tongue arch compresses the air. That is simply impossible while playing. |
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Shifty
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet_cop wrote: | | Just out of curiosity, what area of science do you work in to decry this as not scientific? I thought the information was pretty well laid out and sensible. |
Darryl has spent a great deal of time and effort posting on this and closely related topics for almost 16 years. It seems every time tongue arch and/or faster air are brought up, someone wants him to start all over again.
That's not really fair. As a suggestion, go to Darryl's profile and click on Find all posts by kalijah. Go back to 2003 and start reading.
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JetJaguar
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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I hear the chairs dragging again...
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MrOlds
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| I’ll bring beer. Somebody bring popcorn? |
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Daniel Barenboim
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Just went to the article and website. I've heard of Tom Rolfs and Ben Wright. Who is Darryl Jones?
DB |
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mm55
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:38 am Post subject: |
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I've also heard of Tom Rolfs. He's a fine player, and I had the pleasure of meeting him after a concert where he played the Tomasi. But there's no evidence that he has any background in science.
A good many of the TH community seem to be strongly averse to science, and the clarity of factual knowledge it can bring. Air pressure from the diaphragm, magical misapplication of Bernoulli, and the like, must be very comforting to people who feel threatened when their belief systems don't conform with the actual observable real world.
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trumpet_cop
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Shifty wrote: | | trumpet_cop wrote: | | Just out of curiosity, what area of science do you work in to decry this as not scientific? I thought the information was pretty well laid out and sensible. |
Darryl has spent a great deal of time and effort posting on this and closely related topics for almost 16 years. It seems every time tongue arch and/or faster air are brought up, someone wants him to start all over again.
That's not really fair. As a suggestion, go to Darryl's profile and click on Find all posts by kalijah. Go back to 2003 and start reading. |
I can do my own research outside the forum, thank you. I honestly don't see the harm in asking what his scientific background is since I do not personally know him and that he doesn't advertise that freely here other than that he is an engineer. Unspecified, at that.
While I'm not a kinesiologist or biomechanical engineer, I know that if my horn feels too open I'm going to do something to balance that and find an ideal resistance. Just like if something were too tight I would try to do something to balance that.
mm55: speaking of observable real world.... isn't the diaphragm an involuntary muscle that is actually relaxing during exhalation? So how does that create air pressure? I'm asking questions not to cause a fight, just to gain clarity as to how I'm being lumped into a group of folks who are "threatened" by someone's explanation for asking a question.
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area51recording
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| 6 pages.... |
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet_cop wrote: |
mm55: speaking of observable real world.... isn't the diaphragm an involuntary muscle that is actually relaxing during exhalation? So how does that create air pressure? I'm asking questions not to cause a fight, just to gain clarity as to how I'm being lumped into a group of folks who are "threatened" by someone's explanation for asking a question. |
If you read his post carefuly, you'll see he's in agreement with you, as he lumped the notion of "air pressure from the diaphragm" with "magical misapplication of Bernoulli, and the like."
The breathing muscles that develop air power are the intercostals, the muscles that expand and shrink the chest to facilitate inhaling and exhaling, respectively. This gets ignored and players and pedagogues still give oddball instructions, such as "breathe from your diaphragm."
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Billy B
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:12 am Post subject: |
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What it feels like and what is actually happening are usually two different things.
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ohnecael
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:47 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Shifty"] | trumpet_cop wrote: |
That's not really fair. As a suggestion, go to Darryl's profile and click on Find all posts by kalijah. Go back to 2003 and start reading. |
I'll do you one better and publish a book over his comments and sell it on here for a small premium 
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TKSop
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | What it feels like and what is actually happening are usually two different things. |
Bingo.
If it were this simple... Would we rather listen to a vastly superior player whose understanding of the science is severely lacking (and who believes things we know are wrong) or a decent/unspectacular player who could explain perfectly what is (should be) happening but wasn't as good at making it happen?
As you say, Billy, what it feels like isn't necessarily what's actually happening...
So is knowing what should be happening going to lead us to actually doing the right things? Not necessarily, it depends on the player.
Is being told things that aren't necessarily stone cold facts "okay" if it leads what's actually happening to happen correctly?
It depends - if those things have a proven track record of producing results then it's obvious why people believe them (and pass them on). Equally it's understandable that those that know better will sometimes be irritated by this.
I could go both ways on this... In my own playing I'll tolerate a few wrong beliefs/metaphors if necessary (results being primary), but I can see why it winds a few people up.
(I also personally think much of this conflict is in the nature of message boards - within any given method/school or with prolonged teaching from a reputable teacher these conflicting emphases may not wind up conflicting anywhere near as much) |
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Wrms
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 8:05 am Post subject: |
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[quote="TKSop"] | Billy B wrote: | What it feels like and what is actually happening are usually two different things.
Is being told things that aren't necessarily stone cold facts "okay" if it leads what's actually happening to happen correctly?
It depends - if those things have a proven track record of producing results then it's obvious why people believe them (and pass them on). Equally it's understandable that those that know better will sometimes be irritated by this.
I could go both ways on this... In my own playing I'll tolerate a few wrong beliefs/metaphors if necessary (results being primary), but I can see why it winds a few people up. |
After 34 years of teaching instrumental music the amount of times that I have used my words in a way that wasn’t completely correct in order to get the kids to do the right thing is Un-countable. I was very open about that, I would tell even beginners “this isn’t quite correct but maybe this will work for you and btw don’t tell your future college teacher that I said this”. Knowing how to trick them into doing something was part of the way that I taught. Maybe it was wrong, but I got decent results. I would even laugh about it when they were in high school, I remember distinctly telling a kid that I think the problem was he didn’t raise his left eyebrow high enough.
Mark
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:08 am Post subject: |
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TKsop wrote: | Quote: | | Would we rather listen to a vastly superior player whose understanding of the science is severely lacking (and who believes things we know are wrong) or a decent/unspectacular player who could explain perfectly what is (should be) happening but wasn't as good at making it happen? |
I understand, AND I can make it happen.
Science, good or bad, is no substitute for development by way of hard work and practice. Listening and awareness.
If teachers can keep things action-oriented and musical, that serves just fine.
For example, if arching the tongue helps you ascend in pitch then do it! END OF LESSON.
But NO. They must give an explanation to attempt to justify the arch based on fake science. Why? Is the action and the result not sufficient?
But even further. They must, through their suspect cause-effect reasoning (or simply hearsay) give the tongue arch credit for:
- compressing the air (which it doesn't)
- directly controlling the pitch (which it doesn't)
- "directing the air to the aperture" (really??)
- increasing the air speed through the aperture (which it doesn't, not that it matters)
- changing the "oral resonance" (which it may, but is not required)
- "coloring" the sound (barely, if at all)
- balancing their checkbook
- paying off the national debt
-bringing world peace
So the teacher has gone from instruction to disinformation.
The same could be said for any number of "trumpetspeak" platitudes including:
-"lots of air"
-"very little air" (or "air-flow is not required")
-"move the air"
-"fill up the horn"
-"oral resonance"
-"relaxed" playing
-"simply release the air"
and others.
My motivation is not to bring science discussion to instructional language, but yet to help rid it when it is unwarranted or even harmful. There is NOTHING wrong with metaphor to encourage certain actions. But please qualify it as such and understand that it just might not be literally true.
as wrms does: | Quote: | | I was very open about that, I would tell even beginners “this isn’t quite correct but maybe this will work for you and btw don’t tell your future college teacher that I said this”. |
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TKSop
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | TKsop wrote: | Quote: | | Would we rather listen to a vastly superior player whose understanding of the science is severely lacking (and who believes things we know are wrong) or a decent/unspectacular player who could explain perfectly what is (should be) happening but wasn't as good at making it happen? |
I understand, AND I can make it happen.
Science, good or bad, is no substitute for development by way of hard work and practice. Listening and awareness. |
That comment was by way of illustration, not directed at anyone in particular.
And I agree - knowledge is a path to doing, but it's the results that count.
| Quote: | For example, if arching the tongue helps you ascend in pitch then do it! END OF LESSON.
But NO. They must give an explanation to attempt to justify the arch based on fake science. Why? Is the action and the result not sufficient? |
Indeed - if an instruction like "think tongue arch" produces results then that means that how the particular student thinks of it helps them do the right things...
But doing the right things is the end goal - all we've learned from that instruction working is that the instruction worked (having already established that we don't necessarily do what we think we do, the instruction working proves nothing of the truth value behind it!).
And exactly as you say - if the end result is there, it IS sufficient as far as I'm concerned.
This, IMHO, is the value of good teaching and why no amount of theoretical knowledge can replace good tuition - without correct assesment of whether instructions are working or not working, the important bit (correct action) isn't the focus, trying to apply theories is. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | ...
This, IMHO, is the value of good teaching
...
the important bit (correct action) isn't the focus, trying to apply theories is. |
------------------------------------
Is the above what you mean? I might be confused by the sentence structure.
Jay
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