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My Reports on Kurt Thompson's 16 Wk Range & Endurance Co


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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:42 am    Post subject: Re: summary Reply with quote

lambchop wrote:
I don't think you have to be a professional to teach and I think some of the best professionals can't always teach.


I'm sure you've heard the old saying... 'Can do, can't teach'
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: summary Reply with quote

mrhappy wrote:
lambchop wrote:
I don't think you have to be a professional to teach and I think some of the best professionals can't always teach.


I'm sure you've heard the old saying... 'Can do, can't teach'


"Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach teachers."
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
If you've got the time and the money, actually taking up the flute for a while might help your trumpet playing as the embouchure for flute and trumpet (if you're playing each of them correctly) are very similar.

When I first played trumpet and only had a range to high D, my embouchure was very top-lip heavy and my mouth corners used to firm up in a downward feel, kind of like a frown.

Later when I learned the flute as music ed major in college, I learned that on the flute you had to keep the line where the top lip meets the bottom lip pretty straight across, meaning not frowning, nor smiling. As you ascend into the upper register on the flute, you close the aperture from the sides as well as the top and bottom and the bottom lip (and jaw) kicks out slightly to direct the airstream higher over the head joint.

When I applied those same playing mannerisms to my trumpet embouchure, the results were astounding. I finally was on the right track. I found that the bottom lip was sharing more of the burden of pressure and the embouchure became more efficient.

So taking up the flute for a little while could possibly help you on the trumpet because it did for me.


Wow, I didn't expect there was a correlation to trumpet, but I was able to get notes out pretty easily. I'll work on flute some and maybe it will help since I may be in the same situation you were.
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:

Later when I learned the flute as music ed major in college, I learned that on the flute you had to keep the line where the top lip meets the bottom lip pretty straight across, meaning not frowning, nor smiling. As you ascend into the upper register on the flute, you close the aperture from the sides as well as the top and bottom and the bottom lip (and jaw) kicks out slightly to direct the airstream higher over the head joint.

I believe I pull in my bottom lip to ascend on trumpet. I can see that you need to direct the air higher on flute high notes. Guess I'd be interested in comments from people whether they pull in their bottom lip or kick out their jaw to ascend.
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: embouchure tweak Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
gabriel127 wrote:
... I learned that on the flute you had to keep the line where the top lip meets the bottom lip pretty straight across, meaning not frowning, nor smiling. As you ascend into the upper register on the flute, you close the aperture from the sides as well as the top and bottom and the bottom lip (and jaw) kicks out slightly to direct the airstream higher over the head joint.

When I applied those same playing mannerisms to my trumpet embouchure, the results were astounding. I finally was on the right track. I found that the bottom lip was sharing more of the burden of pressure and the embouchure became more efficient. ...

-------------------------------------
I don't recall any other mentioning of the 'straight across' lip position for trumpet.

I'm interested in learning if other players or teachers use that technique and description. I'll try it myself.

Jay


Well, I can tell you that Jerry Callet did. In fact, he applied his embouchure to the flute and even taught flute students.

But just to expand on what I was talking about, I'll go back into a little more history:

I had been told by a well-respected teacher to "keep the corners tight." He even described it as like a "fu-man-chu." This same teacher went on tirades in all of his texts and his "encyclopedia" about how a player should never tongue between the teeth as if spitting seeds or confetti. He preached tonguing behind the teeth in the lower register, and higher, including the roof of the mouth in the high register. He dedicated the better part of one of my two-hour lessons with him hammering away at how bad tonguing between the teeth is. Following these two pieces of bad advice (the tight corners and the tonguing behind the teeth and on the roof of the mouth) cost me probably 10 years of lack of progress. (So Lamb Chop, now you know where I'm coming from with the "don't quit" attitude. You might be fretting after spending 16 weeks on a program to no avail; trumpet playing has been a lifelong project of mine and I've been at it for 50 years. 10 of those years don't even feel like that big a segment of the journey.)

What I found was that tonguing on the roof of the mouth (which is OK for soft, legato-tongue applications) kinda gives the jaw a tendency to recede and this weakens the embouchure, placing a higher burden on the top lip. And my opinion is that whether a player is upstream or downstream, he should always strive to even the burden of pressure as much as possible by playing with the jaw out as much as possible. Tonguing between the teeth helps keep that jaw out. It also gives more balls to the attack.

Just as an example, try playing a passage in which there are some heavily accented fortissimo high Cs or high Ds, let's say there are two sets of eighth-note triplets followed by a quarter note. They don't have to be fast, I'm more focused on playing those notes as loud and as strong as hell. They're all heavily accented and on the marcato (short) side. How are you going to play the crap out of those notes with your tongue striking the roof of your mouth? It's significantly more difficult to do as compared to tonguing that same passage with the tongue striking between the lips as Jerry Callet advocates with his "spit buzz."

So for me, and lots of other players, tonguing between the lips is definitely the only way to go. And just to give a little testimony to this claim, both Maurice Andre (through a translator) and Doc Severinsen both told me personally that they tongue between the lips/teeth. Doc even used the words "as if spitting a seed out of your mouth." And by the way, in reality if you really take the time to analyze it and identify what you feel when you tongue between the teeth/lips, you will find that when you ascend into the upper register, the mouth cavity becomes compressed and smaller, thus while you still might be tonguing with the tip of the tongue between the teeth and lips, you will probably find that you can feel the top side of the tongue touching the roof of the mouth. That's why when people ask me, where do you tongue, I say, "everywhere" depending on the range being played.

Back to the topic of the mouth corners being tight:
I'm puzzled whenever I hear some great players recommend, "keep the corners tight." Because as I said, for me, that causes the jaw to recede and weakens the embouchure.

This causes me to question, are we talking about the same "corners?" To me, the corners are the corners of the mouth, the place where some people who chew toothpicks (I never got what that was all about) have the toothpicks sticking out. But PERHAPS the people who recommend keeping the corners tight are referring to the laterally outermost points INSIDE the rim of the mouthpiece. If that's what they're talking about when they say "corners," then I don't disagree with them.

I believe in the analogy of thinking of the lips inside and under the rim of a mouthpiece closing in around the aperture very much in the same way that the opening of a laundry bag closes when you pull the drawstring tight. Another good analogy would be regarding the aperture of the lips in the same way as the aperture of a camera. When it closes, it closes in from all sides, top, bottom, and both sides.

There are plenty of fine players who play with their mouth corners relaxed even to the point of letting air pockets form behind them. There's an interview of Chuck Findley by Arturo Sandoval on YouTube, in which Chuck talks about letting the cheeks puff out a little in order to change the sound and get a bigger sound. If you watch Chuck play his solo on "Nature Boy" with James Last (on YouTube) you can see him let his cheeks go out in the middle of phrases, and he pulls them back in right in the middle of a phrase. I assure you, he's not circular breathing in these phrases. If he was playing with his mouth corners outside of the mouthpiece tight all of the time, then his cheeks wouldn't be puffing back and forth like that.

So my opinion on the tight corners discussion is, if you're talking about the corners inside of the rim of the mouthpiece, I agree. If you're talking about the actual corners of the mouth outside of the mouthpiece, I disagree.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: summary Reply with quote

lambchop wrote:
Robert P wrote:
People talk crap about him because he gives them just cause to do so. Are you aware of some of the nonsense he's gotten involved in? If he were a fantastic player who chronically behaved like a d*ick, I imagine people would regularly add a caveat something along the lines of "but he can really play".

I'm not aware of people who have added that caveat. He can play high and loud due primarily the physical tools he was born with. I haven't heard anything to suggest he has a high degree of technical facility.

Ask yourself - who's hired him for his playing ability?

I think people like to attack him and can always find a reason to say he can't play, especially if they have to compare him with Doc to find an example.

He chose to put his attempt at a Doc Severinsen chart out for public consumption so the comparison to Doc is absolutely appropriate and of his own choosing.

I believe anyone with any sense who wasn't operating under delusions of grandeur would first woodshed a chart like this exhaustively and make an objective self-assessment of whether they're even in the ballpark before even mentioning anything about it. What he chose to do was make this big drawn-out production, telling the world about how he was going to unveil this example of magnificence.

You don't have to go to Doc, there's a lot players I don't think he compares to, including not-famous players who are gigging pros.

Speaking of players he doesn't compare to, he's spent a lot of energy bashing Wayne Bergeron's performance of MacArthur Park. Kurt couldn't shine Wayne's shoes nor could he match Wayne's live performance if he had 10 years to work on it and his life depended on it. He makes all this ridiculous noise talking about playing with Maynard's style. Kurt couldn't be any farther from Maynard's style, sound, command of the instrument.

Quote:
he doesn't just play high and loud based on skills he was born with.

I didn't say skills I said physical tools. Like a lot of people he's been able to play fairly high from a young age. Playing with great sound, technical agility and musicality is another matter.

I'm curious why you seem to be energetically defending him when it sounds like he's being a bit of an ass toward you, you didn't really get what you were hoping for and if I understand you correctly it sounds like you didn't even get all the sessions you paid for, though it doesn't sound like you missed out on anything.

It sounds like you bought into his self-generated hype, exactly what Joey Tartell warned against in that piece I referred you to.

If you want it straight, based on what I've heard of your playing, I believe a decent teacher would have immediately recognized you've got more fundamental issues than not having a screaming high range and worked on those. KT apparently was happy to take your money to go through the motions of trying to build a house without a solid foundation.

Would it be accurate to say that before taking his "course" you couldn't do either of these things:

1 - Play chromatically and in scale form, tongued and slurred from low G to D over high C and back down with a clean, solid, supported sound

2 - Arpeggiate from a G below the staff to a D over high C and back down with a clean, solid, supported sound.

...and you still can't.

What do you feel you got for your money?
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: summary Reply with quote

lambchop wrote:
I think people like to attack him and can always find a reason to say he can't play, especially if they have to compare him with Doc to find an example.

Here's a player you've probably never heard of - he plays in the Disney World orbit. You think KT could duplicate this? (Hint: the correct answer rhymes with "Yo")


Link

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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurt is an easy target because of his past behavior. I would never hire him, I would never look up to him or take his course. However, there are MANY galvanizing people in the community that things can be said about.

Robert, you need to stop browbeating Lambchop for his choice to take his own path and give something a chance. For someone who is hiding behind a keyboard and not disclosing credentials or posting their own videos, you sure seem to have a lot to say that is not constructive. If you can teach him better then you should offer advice rather than just tearing him down.

Steve, I wish you luck in your journey. While I think this course wasn't the right fit for you, I hope you got something out of it and find a new curriculum that helps you reach your goals. If you ever would want advice or to talk through things you can PM me and I will be happy to contact you off the forum and offer whatever I can.

TC
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
Robert, you need to

I don't need to do squat on your sayso sport. You're taking your handle too seriously.

I'm not browbeating anyone, I'm candidly discussing some points Lambchop chose to discuss.

It's not just KT's past behavior that's a problem - as we see in this very thread.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: summary Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
lambchop wrote:
I think people like to attack him and can always find a reason to say he can't play, especially if they have to compare him with Doc to find an example.

Here's a player you've probably never heard of - he plays in the Disney World orbit. You think KT could duplicate this? (Hint: the correct answer rhymes with "Yo")


Link


Mark Zauss is a freakishly strong player in the upper register, a lot stronger than Kurt. However, I'm in agreement that there are probably not many here on TH who command the high register to the extent Kurt commands the high register. I tend to separate what I hear from the personality behind what I hear. Kurt can play and I think we have to give him credit for that independent of personal issues. He's not Maynard and he's not Doc but if he's playing the lead book in your band I think, based on what I hear, that he's up to the task of doing a pretty credible job, certainly a better job than I could do (I'm an improvisational soloist and the last thing I want to do is play the lead book).

So, that being said, I also think all these "This many weeks to double C" courses are fundamentally flawed and are an invitation to disappointment. The high range is primarily a technique thing limited by your personal physiology. These courses treat high range as primarily a strength thing. The guy singing bass in the chorus is not going to sing the soprano part well no matter how strong he is. High range is primarily physiology + technique and these "this many weeks to double C" courses all seem to want to ignore that truth with the idea that you can just muscle it up and overpower your natural physiological limitations.

Whistle a low note. Then whistle a high note. It doesn't take more strength to whistle the high note. It just takes a different technique in terms of such things as relative lip position, tongue position, the shape of the oral cavity and airflow. There is a lot of similarity between this and producing the high range. It's not a perfect analogy but it does have validity to a significant degree.

There are a lot of exercises that can help a player develop competency in the high range. However, the necessary foundational element is the technique. Without the proper technique even Hercules is going to struggle with high range.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:

I don't need to do squat on your sayso sport.


That's a cute way to respond.

Robert P wrote:
It's not just KT's past behavior that's a problem - as we see in this very thread.


I believe you and I can genuinely agree on that. It sucks Kurt has treated Lambchop in this way. But we don't need to keep rubbing it in his face, we need to support him and offer advice to help him reach his goal.
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lambchop
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: summary Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:

I'm curious why you seem to be energetically defending him when it sounds like he's being a bit of an ass toward you, you didn't really get what you were hoping for and if I understand you correctly it sounds like you didn't even get all the sessions you paid for, though it doesn't sound like you missed out on anything.

It sounds like you bought into his self-generated hype, exactly what Joey Tartell warned against in that piece I referred you to.

I didn't think much of his article. It sounded like a news reporter kind of attacks. I guess I still kind of like the guy and don't want to get into bashing him too much.

I knew he had a lot of hype and didn't buy into the holy grail thing, but I was at a stagnating point and thought there might be something to the range coupled with endurance premise, and also the shotgun of techniques building up over time that would strengthen an embouchure.
I was aware of people warning that you need a good foundation before going ape on high notes, and saw a video here of a student that was attempting high notes that clearly couldn't play well enough yet. However, I had worked quite a while getting up to a weak high C and didn't think I fit into that category.
Quote:

If you want it straight, based on what I've heard of your playing, I believe a decent teacher would have immediately recognized you've got more fundamental issues than not having a screaming high range and worked on those. KT apparently was happy to take your money to go through the motions of trying to build a house without a solid foundation.

Would it be accurate to say that before taking his "course" you couldn't do either of these things:

1 - Play chromatically and in scale form, tongued and slurred from low G to D over high C and back down with a clean, solid, supported sound

2 - Arpeggiate from a G below the staff to a D over high C and back down with a clean, solid, supported sound.

...and you still can't.

What do you feel you got for your money?


You could be right about not having enough foundation, and that I can't do 1 or 2. I do have some lip firmness I can't say for sure if it is good or bad. I think I can do a scale to high Bb cleanly and better than I could before. I can palm to a high E and I couldn't do that before. I have been off for a week and wanted to see how much firmness would go away, but it seems to be fairly stable.
I need to ease into some practice for a while and see what I can do. Thanks for the interest.


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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, let's just give lampchop a break and lay off him. He bared his soul and exposed his playing chronicling his experience being taken advantage of by a narcissistic nut-case. Being gullible and hopeful are not sins against humanity and I think we've all experienced that in some form or fashion at some point in our lives, whether it had to do with trumpet playing or not.

Actually, lambchop has done a lot of people a favor, because he's shown them one important thing for all trumpet students to keep in mind:

If someone is seeking a teacher who can help them acquire the ability to play in the upper register, the last teacher they should select is a natural player, someone who always had an easy time playing in the high register at a very early stage. They can't teach someone who has had difficulty playing in the upper register how to overcome that difficulty because they've never experienced that difficulty themselves. You can't teach what you haven't experienced.

The world is SO full of examples:

1. Rick Baptist. There is a video of him on YouTube doing what's billed as either a master class, or clinic. Right up front, Rick tells the audience essentially that his session is not going to be a session in which he's going to impart some kind of skill or knowledge that's going to make someone in the room a great player. He admits very candidly that trumpet playing came easy to him, so rather than try and make something up about some kind of intriguing exotic breathing technique (the way Maynard used to do) or magical method, he's just going to talk about experiences of being a professional trumpet player, akin to "road stories." That's a fair and honest thing to do.

2. Maynard Ferguson. He couldn't teach his son to do what he did on the trumpet. And it's not that he didn't want to. Eventually, he gave Doc Reinhardt a blank check to teach his son, Bentley to be able to play the trumpet and play in the high register. If being able to play high notes on the trumpet automatically qualifies a person to be able to teach others to do it, then why couldn't Maynard teach his own son? Reinhardt never achieved this goal either, by the way.

Another example involving Maynard is the high note book. Go on YouTube and look up one of Denis DiBlasio's stories about the "high note book." Denis says the same thing on that video that I'm saying, that Maynard really didn't know how or why he was able to play the way he did and why other people couldn't. Thus he never got around to writing a book about how to play high notes because he really didn't know what to put in it. So why try to write a book just because publishers are prodding you? They just want the big name and to make money off of it.

Some people are better spellers than others. Does that mean that these good spellers are experts on the human brain and what region of the brain processes the ability to spell, the chemistry of the brain, what makes them better spellers than others? Of course not. Not any more than high note players really understand what's happening with their chops when they play. Trumpet playing can be very deceiving. What you feel like you're doing and what you think you may be doing is not necessarily what is actually happening.

A lot of these guys who were professional players only get into teaching because they are tired of the road, too old to join the service, want to live a family life, need health insurance, and preferably a pension, too. But they are not good teachers. Their reason for teaching is self-serving. They should stick to performing and if they need more money, do something else other than teach because it's not fair to the students. They should leave teaching to those who really know what's going on with the chops, have a genuine passion for teaching, and really know how to teach.

Lambchop is right about one thing, that the effort and money he spent on this course might not be a total loss. With all of KT's issues and shortcomings, there might be one thing that Lampchop might have gained that might give him some improvement, if not now, maybe in the future stemming from that 16-wk experience. If nothing else, Lambchop has learned to choose his teachers more carefully next time.

Another thing he might have learned and what others could learn from this is that practice routines alone can't always do the whole job of transforming a person from a non-high-note player to a high-note player. Sometimes the embouchure itself might need some adjustments and a change in mechanics.

And lastly, there are things that happen subconsciously to the player and it takes a certain degree of coordination for the lips and the muscles of the embouchure to respond adequately. Some people just don't have the coordination required. I recall as a kid seeing another kid in gym class running forward to catch a fly ball playing softball. This kid had his tongue sticking out and when he reached up to catch the ball it completely missed his glove and hit him right in the head. Some people are just not cut out to be athletes, and some are just not cut out to be trumpet players. That's OK. There's plenty of demand for software engineers.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post and analysis!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think another thing to keep in mind is that the concept that, because one hasn't experienced something, they can't teach it, has a foot note. And that is that not all natural players are incapable of learning from their experience; that after years of teaching, they haven't learned any further pedagogy.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lambchop wrote:
gabriel127 wrote:

Later when I learned the flute as music ed major in college, I learned that on the flute you had to keep the line where the top lip meets the bottom lip pretty straight across, meaning not frowning, nor smiling. As you ascend into the upper register on the flute, you close the aperture from the sides as well as the top and bottom and the bottom lip (and jaw) kicks out slightly to direct the airstream higher over the head joint.

I believe I pull in my bottom lip to ascend on trumpet. I can see that you need to direct the air higher on flute high notes. Guess I'd be interested in comments from people whether they pull in their bottom lip or kick out their jaw to ascend.


Here's some background before directly answering your question:

It can easily be observed that 99% of players, regardless of whether they are upstream or downstream, you will see the bell of the horn go up when they descend and come down when they ascend. Another way of putting it is that the jaw tends to drop and move forward when descending down low, and then the jaw tends to come in and close when ascending. That's what actually happens. Examples include Maynard, who is reputed to be a downstreamer, and Doc Severinsen, who is an upstreamer. So regardless of their difference in airstream types, you can still see that their jaws move the same way when they ascend and descend.

So, given this fact, can anyone say that their jaw "kicks out" when they ascend? No. If they said that, they'd be wrong even though it feels as if that's what they're doing. BUT, here's the important part: The player should always TRY to keep the jaw out as much as possible when ascending. By allowing the jaw to recede excessively will end up placing more pressure on the top lip and in order to have range and endurance, both lips should share as close to an equal burden as possible. So I would say, when ascending, try to keep that jaw out there as much as possible. If thinking of "kicking the jaw out" helps you to do this, then I'd say, yeah, think of that, but that's not actually what's going to be happening. Some people say "I kick my jaw out." That's probably what they feel like they're doing even though it's coming in a little.

As far as pulling the bottom lip in to ascend is concerned......
I wouldn't think of that so much. That's going to run counter to trying to keep the jaw out. I think that you could get much better results by thinking of puckering both lips toward the center, particularly that bottom lip. I think that will yield much better results.

If you listen to the trailer for Lynn Nicholson's "Maynard Ferguson Protocol" for trumpet, he talks about just the opposite of pulling in the bottom lip. That protocol is based on the opposite mannerism of "unfurling the lips" and letting them go out into the mouthpiece. This works great and when employing this technique, you think mainly about puckering to ascend, making that aperture smaller and the tunnel (your lips) deeper if you can grasp what I'm saying.

I wish you hadn't taken down your videos, because I can't refer back to them to see what you're doing, but from what I can recall, I think generally speaking you could benefit by learning to play with your jaw out more. It's going to be a totally different feel from what you're doing now, but don't forget that what you're doing now is not working at all. I saw you squeak out a scalewise progression to an F and that might be an improvement for you, but still that's a long long way from playing the entire lead trumpet part to a tune such as "In a Mellow Tone," I think it was Basie's arrangement, playing all that stuff leading up to the end where you have to belt out a high F really loud and hold it. Frankly, I don't think you'd ever reach that level playing on the embouchure that I saw you demonstrate. You're not playing with enough bottom jaw support from what I can recall.

Have you ever tried doing Jerry Callet's "spit buzz" into the mouthpiece? Just doing that alone helps you get the feel for playing with the jaw out further.
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SSmith1226 wrote:
Great post and analysis!!!


Thanks Steve. I see you're from Marathon, FL. Lucky! I assume that you must do some Tarpon fishing? Snook, bonefish, redfish?

Gotta love the keys.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:15 pm    Post subject: spit buzz - jaw position Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
...
Have you ever tried doing Jerry Callet's "spit buzz" into the mouthpiece? Just doing that alone helps you get the feel for playing with the jaw out further.

------------------------------------
DO you think the "spit buzz" 'feel for playing with the jaw out further' results in any actual 'out further' jaw position when ascending?

Jay
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Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well . . . this ended exactly like I thought it would.
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Now teaching via skype. For common sense embouchure help, visit my site and contact me.
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: spit buzz - jaw position Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
gabriel127 wrote:
...
Have you ever tried doing Jerry Callet's "spit buzz" into the mouthpiece? Just doing that alone helps you get the feel for playing with the jaw out further.

------------------------------------
DO you think the "spit buzz" 'feel for playing with the jaw out further' results in any actual 'out further' jaw position when ascending?

Jay


If the person is doing the spit buzz with tongue releasing from the right place, meaning it's touching the bottom lip, yes, this can help. I should have said, "this alone CAN help get the feel...." It's not the only thing. Doing the spit buzz doesn't mean that the person is going to maintain that position while ascending, but that's what they should strive to do. Getting the tongue to support the bottom lip as in the tongue controlled embouchure also helps to maintain that position.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Callet disciple. I don't employ everything that Jerry taught to the letter. But some of the things that I picked up from him without a doubt contributed to the way I play today. This is one of them.

According to my experience the main thing that can help a person get the right feel for playing with the jaw out is to avoid tightening the mouth corners so that they are tight in against the molars and forming that frown or fu-man-chu type position. As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, that tightening of the corners tends to cause the jaw recede more, just as does curling the bottom lip over the teeth.

My experience was that when I relaxed the corners, even to the point of puffing the cheeks a little bit and thought of keeping the line where my two lips meet in a straight line (rather than the corners curling downward as in a frown, or curling upward as in a smile) this I found very helpful. It helped me to play with the jaw further out. It felt radically different than the way I had played previously, and the results were significantly positive. But inside the rim of the mouthpiece, I can say I keep the corners there tight. I keep everything around the aperture nice and firm while the center where the aperture is is very relaxed to keep the lips nice and supple and vibrating freely.
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