• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Bach....really??


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 6007
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:10 am    Post subject: Bach....really?? Reply with quote

I just had ANOTHER student show up to his lesson with a brand new Bach 37.....with a third slide dump slide that pops out with the least amount of compression, and a tuning slide so tight that it was VERY difficult to remove to clean/grease. Not to mention all the black residue on the valves...again, I know, not unusual.

I fully realize that Bach/Selmer makes great horns in great numbers, but this is a common and ridiculous occurrence, in my opinion. Sure, these are minor and easy fixes, but how does a horn like this pass whatever inspection (if there is one?) before being shipped out to retailers? And when these horns are sold on the retail level to students, who don’t know what to look for in a particular horn, it causes problems that are completely avoidable. Dented dump slides, valves that don’t properly break in due to all the junk in the casings.... . Again, kids (and parents who buy the horns) don’t know what to look for.

And then there was the SEVENTH GRADER who showed up at his lesson with his new Bach 37 and a SCHILKE 14A4A (certainly NOT Selmer’s fault in this case) recommended to him by the idiot in the retail music store!

Brad
_________________
"I always try but, not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
fredo
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 564
Location: France

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In January, i ordered a 190 37 S and a 8335 S.

The 2 brand new, in plastic Wrap.

Bach : average slides, dirty and noisy valves, plating loss on the third slide (perfectly circular, 5 mm diameter)

Approximately 1500 $ more than the Yammie (discounted at 1990 Euros ! the 190 37 : 3299 euros)

Yamaha : flawless, perfectly clean and silent valves (no residue in the bottom caps 1 week later ...) perfect slides. and greatly improved sound on the 8335 2. perfect playability and intonation, very predictable (and even more with Yamaha mouthpieces).

The BACH was returned to Thomann who refunded it quickly with no questions ...
_________________
Frederic FELTZ
Yamaha XENO 2 8335 S Bb
Yamaha 16 C4 and Shew Jazz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 245

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know who started this absurd practice, but I have encountered a lot of new Bach horns where the helpful retailer went ahead and put grease of assorted types (anything from petroleum jelly to pure lanolin oil) on the slides and then thinned it on 1 & 3 with valve oil to the point the slides will fall off in handling if not retained by a stop rod (3rd). They don't do it to the tuning slide, but sometimes whomever is getting minimum wage to do this doesn't realize that you don't need a fast dump slide or second (and has no concept what the difference is between fast and unrestrained). It's a prep service that can only irritate the customer, especially if it turns into a trip to a tech for repair. Bach has indicated that they do not do this, and the variety of substances thinned supports that. As for a stiff tuning slide, that's pretty normal going back decades - and my preference.
_________________
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1986 Yamaha YEP-621 (first in US)
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2364
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it puts your mind at ease, we unpack and inspect EVERY instrument prior to putting them in our showroom. Sure, occasionally we'll see some instruments with manufacturing residue, primarily excess rouge. In extreme cases I'll disassemble and run the entire instrument through an ultrasonic cycle. Followed up with lube, assembly with appropriate lubricants and adjustments as needed. You can rest assured that any instrument we sell will be properly set up for you in advance.

Of course, we're happy to perform our blueprinting service at a discount on new instrument purchased from us.

I hope this is helpful.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 7414
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My current Bach which I bought new many many years ago had some of these same issues. Annoying as it is, there was no escaping that for me it played and sounded better than every other make and model. I'm relatively critical of Bach but can't get away from them, at least not for their Bb and C horns.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jetjaguar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1253
Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure they aren't knockoff Bachs?
_________________
1947 Olds Recording Model Super
CKB 7C mp

Take The Double Buzz Survey: https://goo.gl/JUuaNn
Survey Results: https://goo.gl/UM7Yjd
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 6007
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetjaguar wrote:
Are you sure they aren't knockoff Bachs?


ABSOLUTELY sure; these are sold by a national music store chain, and I see, handle and sometimes play the kids’ horns on occasion. And this is nothing new, I’ve been seeing this for years.

My point of starting this thread is not meant as Bach-bashing, but really, a horn with the history and popularity of a Bach 37 should be made with a bit more attention to detail.....and that’s being generous, I don’t think properly fitted slides are just “details.” The one I looked at today had a ridiculously loose dump slide (and it was a loose fit, not overly greased) and the tuning slide was tight to the point of being barely movable. I much prefer a tight fit also, but not to this degree.

But the thing is, as long as Bach has it’s reputation as being a great horn (and many of them ARE), they probably see no need to improve on these things. The kids who buy their horns mostly don’t know the difference, and as long as Bach’s sales remain constant, there’s probably not much incentive to change anything.
Maybe it will eventually catch up to them, especially with the increasing competition from Asian manufacturers. Remember Yamaha in the early 60’s? They sure stepped up their game.

Brad
_________________
"I always try but, not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 10655
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad,

I think OSE had some interesting points. Just out of curiosity, is it possible the kids have been purchasing from the same store and one or more of these issues might have been introduced in their prep?

I too wouldn’t want an overly tight tuning slide, nor an overly loose dump slide (been there, done that). If you are seeing a cluster of the same issues it might be a overly opinionated tech who sets up the horns as he would his own.

Either way I wish there was someone high up in Selmer, who monitored this site to look for issues. Like there is at Getzen. Perhaps someone who has Ted’s number could bring this to his attention.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dfcoleman
Regular Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2015
Posts: 57
Location: Xenia, OH

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Sadly.... Reply with quote

Sadly, Bach has had quality control problems for decades.
_________________
Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetmandan
Regular Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldschooleuph raises a good point - you can never be sure about the care/maintenance a horn receives while in stock at certain music stores.

I went with a student and his parents to a national chain music store to try out some trumpets. The student had called ahead to let them know we'd be coming and to ask what they had in stock; they had three bachs in stock for us to try. On all three trumpets, at least one valve was backwards in the casing. Someone with good intentions but zero brass knowledge had clearly oiled the valves and put them back in the wrong way before our arrival.

Care/maintenance issues aside, I've also found poorly fitting slides with disappointing regularity. Properly fitting a slide is not overly difficult, it just takes a certain amount of time and attention to detail. It's frustrating to see issues like that on what might otherwise be an excellent horn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 1773
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to dismiss Brad's experiences. But what I've seen is very different.

I went on an extended safari 5+ years ago. During this time, I tried dozens of Bach's. The vast majority of them were great horns with no obvious problems. If I remember correctly, one 37 seemed to have some problems, but that's about it. And FWIW, on that same safari, I ran across one Schilke and a couple Yamaha trumpets that also had quality-control issues.

Again, I'm not trying to dismiss Brad's experiences. But I also think it's easy to jump to conclusions, especially about this topic. On a more constructive note, it might be helpful to return to that store with the student, to see what can be remedied.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Bach 6CFL Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 6007
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To address a valid point you guys mentioned:

I don’t believe any of what I have seen is because of store prep of these horns. I used to teach in two of this store chain’s locations, and the only real prep I ever saw was maybe oiling valves and applying slide grease. I can’t say for certain that the problems I see are not local-shop-induced, but I don’t believe they are.

Again, this was not intended as a Capt. Kirk (RIP) 😉 Bach-bash-fest. I’m fully aware that they still turn out some great horns, and certainly not EVERY Strad suffers from these problems. But very honestly, it seems to be more common than ever in horns I see locally. Again, adult players can weed out the ones that are lesser, but kids just see shiny silver. I’m limited in how much input I have with parents, but I have told parents that they need to take the horn back to the store to address the issues. Whether they do (go back to the store) is out of my control.

Brad
_________________
"I always try but, not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jadickson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1170
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just bought a new 37 in April and the third dump slide does the same thing. I have to keep an elastic band on it. Ridiculous.

It occurred to me this evening, maybe as a result of this thread, that should be covered under the five year manufacturer warranty. I have contacted my vendor to see what the next steps should be for pursuing this.
_________________
Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com -- FREE for iOS and Android.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
blbaumgarn
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 250

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject: Bach....really? Reply with quote

It would seem that this topic thread should get sent to Bach so they can read it and address the concerns. One would have to think they are as quality conscious as other reputable manufacturers in this country. I would think they would want to know, actually.
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
giakara
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 3184
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The funny is that mass production pro horns today cost same or more with the hand made custom/boutique horns and the difference in quality of sound and construction is huge, this is not for all , manufactures like Schilke, Getzen and others still keeps very high standards in they're products.

Regards
_________________
Lawler TL5 silver,TL5 matt,TL6 raw,TL6R matt Bb's
Getzen Eterna C
Selmer 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Lawler 23CT,Getzen Eterna 850,Conn 81A cornets
Carol mini pocket
Reeves /Purviance mpc's
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
zaferis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1618
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granted, every company will produce a lemon on occassion. But lets start forgetting the problems of the past that Bach had in the production of the 80's and 90's - 15 to 20 years ago.
After their strike, and the reinvigoration of quality control in the shop, Bach really is back-having seen the process first hand and watched the finishers and QC person, I find it hard to believe that any trumpets (Strads) leave the factory floor with this issue in the past 15 years.
I wonder how long those horns sat in the store? And is someone in the shop "preparing them" for sale?

Mass procuction vx. Boutique/Hand-made... have you visited the Bach factory to see how much of a trumpet/trombone is hand-made? I've seen Cliff Blackburn build a trumpet and one at the Bach factory, not much difference in hands on - mostly in just the shaping of the bell and how many people work in the shop. In the factory, there are many people doing a small part of the process, in the boutique there are a few people doing a large of the work. Many boutiques outsource large parts, i.e. vlave blocks.

I have literaly played hundreds of Bach trumpets from old to new and have only seen this issue on instruments that were old and used - they often also had other mechanical issues. I believe that there are some out there, but have any of you taken them back the the vendor and complained? You've just purchased a new instrument, are not happy with something that isn't functioning properly.... Take it back! And this can be fixed pretty easily by a qualified technician.

And honestly I've seen as many issues with Yamaha, Getzen, Schilke, etc....
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 1773
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
I have literaly played hundreds of Bach trumpets from old to new and have only seen this issue on instruments that were old and used - they often also had other mechanical issues.

And honestly I've seen as many issues with Yamaha, Getzen, Schilke, etc....

This is pretty much the same as what I've seen, and what I wrote in my original reply.

zaferis wrote:
I believe that there are some out there, but have any of you taken them back the the vendor and complained? You've just purchased a new instrument, are not happy with something that isn't functioning properly.... Take it back! And this can be fixed pretty easily by a qualified technician.

Absolutely.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Bach 6CFL Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 6007
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
.......
After their strike, and the reinvigoration of quality control in the shop, Bach really is back-having seen the process first hand and watched the finishers and QC person, I find it hard to believe that any trumpets (Strads) leave the factory floor with this issue in the past 15 years.
I wonder how long those horns sat in the store? And is someone in the shop "preparing them" for sale?
..........


.......I have literaly played hundreds of Bach trumpets from old to new and have only seen this issue on instruments that were old and used - they often also had other mechanical issues. I believe that there are some out there, but have any of you taken them back the the vendor and complained? You've just purchased a new instrument, are not happy with something that isn't functioning properly.... Take it back! And this can be fixed pretty easily by a qualified technician.

.......


Just to clarify:
I am not in the same position as you are, and I absolutely have not seen or played hundreds of horns. But I have been teaching in a local public school system for six years, and in the same music store chain where I see these problems for four years prior to that. The issues I am seeing (poorly fitting slides, noisy valves, lots of residue in brand new horns) are certainly fixable, and I absolutely WOULD return a horn with those problems to the store. But my point here is, KIDS who buy these horns don’t know there IS a problem, (I would not have purchased a horn with those issues myself to begin with), and I certainly cannot accompanying parents back to the store to correct the problems. Plus, to some degree it’s none of my business to get involved between the store and the kids’ parents.

I SERIOUSLY doubt these issues are resulting from prep work in the stores, what I am seeing are problems (very loose or ridiculously tight slides, noisy valves) that I don’t believe have anything to do with the music store techs. Should they be corrected by the retailer before the horns are sold? Absolutely, but it is not being done. And again, if this was just an occasional occurrence, I would just chalk it off to being acceptable given the number of horns produced. It’s really not occasional though.

Again, I really didn’t intend to turn this into yet another Bach bashing, and I fully realize not every horn they turn out has these problems. But I see a lot of brand new Strads in the hands of students that DO have these problems, and my opinion is that the number of horns with these problems is unacceptable.

Brad
_________________
"I always try but, not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dfcoleman
Regular Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2015
Posts: 57
Location: Xenia, OH

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:46 am    Post subject: Good horns, but.... Reply with quote

I like Bach horns, owned and played ‘em for nearly half a century. But they do have some inconsistency problems, as well as some pretty obvious defects.

Get a good one, though, and they’re excellent horns. If you have one that’s not so good, James Becker, Charlie Melk, et al can put it right.
_________________
Dave
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 6007
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Good horns, but.... Reply with quote

dfcoleman wrote:
I like Bach horns, owned and played ‘em for nearly half a century. But they do have some inconsistency problems, as well as some pretty obvious defects.

Get a good one, though, and they’re excellent horns. If you have one that’s not so good, James Becker, Charlie Melk, et al can put it right.


Absolutely, but: how do you tell a student’s mom or dad that the brand new horn they just bought needs to be sent out to be corrected? We all know that Bach, Yamaha, etc. sell a LOT of horns to students, I would think they take that market segment very seriously. I honestly think that a reason that Bach doesn’t take steps to correct these issues is because their (well deserved) reputation as being fine horns makes it so they don’t have to correct the problems. Again, I could be mistaken, but I absolutely do not think that any of this has anything to do with in-store prep or “new old stock.”

I’m not trying to put myself in between the manufacturer or retailer or the end user, I just think the number of horns I see with these mostly easily fixable problems is excessive. Again, you and I know what to look for when trying a new horn, kids and their parents don’t.

Brad
_________________
"I always try but, not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group