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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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 Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | delano wrote: | | Yes, that's what we all want, a horn with a warm, thick sound. ...... |
Not me.
Brad |
Maybe a little bit of irony....?
Sorry that I have to disappoint you. I played really a hundred, may be more different trumpets from all of the major brands and non of them had a warm, thick sound nor a bright focus sound from itself.
At the same time I admit that there are some horns more suited to a warm, thick sound or to a bright, focused sound but the horns itself? No way!
Give a Monette to a dog and you will still hear barking.
But for them who are craving for the warm thick, sound it could be an idea to consider a change to the slide trombone, at least easier to get that sound. Or flee to the flügelhorn.
BTW, is this a warm, thick sound?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm5AIKlKTvE&feature=push-sd&attr_tag=F6Q6WOztHzHw2lXR%3A6 |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:17 am Post subject: Re: I want a new horn |
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| SMrtn wrote: | I'm playing a Yamaha 4335G and have been for the past couple of years. It's a pretty good horn that has a reasonable - not great - but reasonable warm sound to it. More so when I use a Shilke mpc over my Curry 3c, but either one is good.
Anyway, I like the consistency of Yamaha, but I'm willing to get out of that comfort zone and end up with something else, another brand of horn that has that thick warm tone I'm hankerin' after.
I may be wrong about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but don't want to dick around with vintage 'cause I don't like the idea of maintenance. My budget doesn't go much past a couple of thousand, so if there's anyone that might suggest what I could be considering, I would be grateful for it. |
Hi SMrtn
I not sure personally quite what you mean by thick warm tone, I guessing you mean a less bright, and richer sound. This is a difficult one, as a flugel sound may be more along the lines of what you are looking for, or even a cornet.
Anyway, since you are looking to upgrade your trumpet, a gold brass bell, like you have already, is considered to warm the sound. More controversial or at least far more subtle, is that lacquered trumpets are often considered to have a warmer sound than the same trumpet in silver-plate. Another consideration is a faster bell taper.
i.e. From the following link, bells with fast tapers produce dark, warm sounds:
https://www.bachbrass.com/packages/bachbrass/themes/bachbrass/assets/downloads/Suggestions_For_Choosing_Trumpet.pdf
This may be of interest:
https://www.bachbrass.com/packages/bachbrass/themes/bachbrass/assets/downloads/Trumpet_Bore_Bell_Mouthpipe.pdf
A Bach with a 72G bell would probably have pretty warm sound, but do I think that it is a good idea for an all-around trumpet for someone upgrading? No,not really.
I think that you'd be better off getting something more middle of the road. If you like a warmer sound, since you also like the consistency of Yamaha, why not try the Yamaha YT-8335G Xeno. I have the 8335 Xeno II, and it is a great all-around trumpet. Does it sound thick and warm? No, bright, pure and clear, but it has a nice Bb trumpet sound. The gold brass bell may warm the sound up just enough to suit your taste, whilst maintaining the excellent all-around playability and middle of the road playing characteristics.
I hope that this will help.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | delano wrote: | | Yes, that's what we all want, a horn with a warm, thick sound. ...... |
Not me.
Brad |
Maybe a little bit of irony....?
Sorry that I have to disappoint you. I played really a hundred, may be more different trumpets from all of the major brands and non of them had a warm, thick sound nor a bright focus sound from itself.
At the same time I admit that there are some horns more suited to a warm, thick sound or to a bright, focused sound but the horns itself? No way!
Give a Monette to a dog and you will still hear barking.
But for them who are craving for the warm thick, sound it could be an idea to consider a change to the slide trombone, at least easier to get that sound. Or flee to the flügelhorn.
BTW, is this a warm, thick sound?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm5AIKlKTvE&feature=push-sd&attr_tag=F6Q6WOztHzHw2lXR%3A6 |
I kind of thought maybe your comment was tongue-in-cheek, guess I was a bit slow that day.😉
BTW, I agree. It’s partially a matter of taste, but generally speaking I think a trumpet should sound like a trumpet, it’s not a cornet. If you’re playing music that calls for a cornet, buy a cornet.
At least the OP didn’t say he wanted “dark and smokey but lights up when pushed.”🙄
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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EBjazz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2001
Posts: 2368
Location: SF Bay Area
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SterlingBell
Regular Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2018
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| You might want to try a Puje. I have a Puje 3 with interchangeable leadpipes. It is quite versatile, can range from kinda trumpet bright to kinda flugelhorn dark depending on which leadpipe I use. It’s a nice change from my Bach 43 Sterling Bell. |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: I want a new horn |
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| cgaiii wrote: | | SMrtn wrote: | I'm playing a Yamaha 4335G and have been for the past couple of years. It's a pretty good horn that has a reasonable - not great - but reasonable warm sound to it. More so when I use a Shilke mpc over my Curry 3c, but either one is good.
Anyway, I like the consistency of Yamaha, but I'm willing to get out of that comfort zone and end up with something else, another brand of horn that has that thick warm tone I'm hankerin' after.
I may be wrong about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but don't want to dick around with vintage 'cause I don't like the idea of maintenance. My budget doesn't go much past a couple of thousand, so if there's anyone that might suggest what I could be considering, I would be grateful for it. |
Very familiar with the 4335G or GS. I played one for years, but eventually found it limiting and went off in search of a new horn. One thing I did like about it was that within its limitations, it had a very nice sound, perhaps a product of the gold brass bell (something you might look for).
A little depends on what about the 4335 that is making you want a new horn. Is it the tightness in the upper register, the weight of the horn, etc.?
What I did was play a lot of horns. Luckily, work takes me to Tokyo all the time, and I just wandered around used instrument stores trying all kinds of trumpets. I eventually wound up with a Schilke X3L that I just loved from first blow and still find to be the best trumpet I ever have played. What I wanted or discovered that I wanted was a more open horn with easy air flow. So if you can get to some place where you can try horns it is best. Not sure where you are located, but places like the Washington Music Center carry lots of horns and they will let you play all day, talk to Lee Walkowich. Unless you are very clear about what you want, it is the best way to discover what you really want, or at least want now.
You might look at a Yamaha 6335 or perhaps the new 6335RC that is available in Europe. They are reasonably priced and a step up. There is also a 6345G, which is a professional model that I have heard is along th elines of the 6335, but has a gold brass bell. It might be worth playing as a step up horn. I have an older 6335 as a backup horn/outdoor horn and it is quite serviceable, though not as much to my liking as the Schilke. |
Thanks. Yes, the bold text is exactly what it is. It gets quite tight up there, no matter the mpc, and consequently, the sound becomes somewhat anemic. I fought with it for some time until I exhausted all possibilities in terms of embouchure requirement - not that I'm a vet player by any means. Yeah, it's that tightness. Up to and below G above middle C it's not bad at all in terms of the sound. The weight of the trumpet doesn't bother me, in fact, I never give it a second thought.
The six series is where I'm looking at the moment. |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| EBjazz wrote: | I want a new horn
One that don't frac
One that don't play out of tune
Gives me the range I lack.
Name the song!
Eb |
Oh man, now I got Huey Lewis stuck in my head. |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: I want a new horn |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | SMrtn wrote: | I'm playing a Yamaha 4335G and have been for the past couple of years. It's a pretty good horn that has a reasonable - not great - but reasonable warm sound to it. More so when I use a Shilke mpc over my Curry 3c, but either one is good.
Anyway, I like the consistency of Yamaha, but I'm willing to get out of that comfort zone and end up with something else, another brand of horn that has that thick warm tone I'm hankerin' after.
I may be wrong about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but don't want to dick around with vintage 'cause I don't like the idea of maintenance. My budget doesn't go much past a couple of thousand, so if there's anyone that might suggest what I could be considering, I would be grateful for it. |
Hi SMrtn
I not sure personally quite what you mean by thick warm tone, I guessing you mean a less bright, and richer sound. This is a difficult one, as a flugel sound may be more along the lines of what you are looking for, or even a cornet.
Anyway, since you are looking to upgrade your trumpet, a gold brass bell, like you have already, is considered to warm the sound. More controversial or at least far more subtle, is that lacquered trumpets are often considered to have a warmer sound than the same trumpet in silver-plate. Another consideration is a faster bell taper.
i.e. From the following link, bells with fast tapers produce dark, warm sounds:
https://www.bachbrass.com/packages/bachbrass/themes/bachbrass/assets/downloads/Suggestions_For_Choosing_Trumpet.pdf
This may be of interest:
https://www.bachbrass.com/packages/bachbrass/themes/bachbrass/assets/downloads/Trumpet_Bore_Bell_Mouthpipe.pdf
A Bach with a 72G bell would probably have pretty warm sound, but do I think that it is a good idea for an all-around trumpet for someone upgrading? No,not really.
I think that you'd be better off getting something more middle of the road. If you like a warmer sound, since you also like the consistency of Yamaha, why not try the Yamaha YT-8335G Xeno. I have the 8335 Xeno II, and it is a great all-around trumpet. Does it sound thick and warm? No, bright, pure and clear, but it has a nice Bb trumpet sound. The gold brass bell may warm the sound up just enough to suit your taste, whilst maintaining the excellent all-around playability and middle of the road playing characteristics.
I hope that this will help.
Best wishes
Lou |
i'd never considered a flugelhorn up to now. Might very well be worth looking into. Thanks, and also thank you for the PDF's.
I may be naive here, but I kinda want this next trumpet (or flugel) to be my lifelong instrument - if there is such a thing. |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| delano wrote: | | Yes, that's what we all want, a horn with a warm, thick sound. I have no idea but if you find The One please let us know. |
Will do!  |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Goldplate wrote: | | To me, maintenance of a brass instrument is keeping it clean and lubricating it. That's the same for new and vintage horns. I think you may be saying that you don't want to buy a vintage horn and have to do repairs to get it into shape. |
Yeah, that's right. I'm wary of that whole area. I live in a rural zone in Au and there are no techs or even teachers for many miles - or kilometres - around here. |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| jadickson wrote: | | Can you go to your local music store and try the different Yamaha Xeno models? If you like your Yamaha now, that makes the most sense to me |
Not a lot in the way of local music stores where I live. The two that exist cater for guitar players and drummers almost exclusively, with the odd string instrument.
I'm virtually going to have to buy my next trumpet - or flugelhorn - sight unseen and on faith. Kinda the reason I began this thread. |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 1021
Location: East Asia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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I've made the possible mistake of sliding into collecting. I alternate living in Asia and the US so scanning facebook and craigslist means there are a lot of options for used modern, vintage, and local instruments. The instrument I have that is closest to what you describe is a vintage cornet with deep cornet mouthpiece. That said, while it's fun to own vintage, funky instruments, the truth seems to be what I've heard here, that it's 90% player and 5% trumpet, 5% mouthpiece. I sound pretty much the same on any trumpet.
I think if you can get an ultra deep mouthpiece that sounds more like cornet/flugel, that's worth trying. I totally get that the market is a lot tougher in Australia. I do wonder if you can't find an old cornet around and then add a deep mouthpiece. If there's something like facebook/craigslist marketplaces, I'd also consider posting a WTB (want to buy) post and seeing what shows up. I think if you're looking for a forever trumpet, you're probably going to want something that's more middle of the road; that's what you already have. On the other hand, if you just want something different, and especially if this is for solo/small group playing, it might be worth it to poke around and buy locally. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: I want a new horn |
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| SMrtn wrote: | | cgaiii wrote: | | SMrtn wrote: | I'm playing a Yamaha 4335G and have been for the past couple of years. It's a pretty good horn that has a reasonable - not great - but reasonable warm sound to it. More so when I use a Shilke mpc over my Curry 3c, but either one is good.
Anyway, I like the consistency of Yamaha, but I'm willing to get out of that comfort zone and end up with something else, another brand of horn that has that thick warm tone I'm hankerin' after.
I may be wrong about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but don't want to dick around with vintage 'cause I don't like the idea of maintenance. My budget doesn't go much past a couple of thousand, so if there's anyone that might suggest what I could be considering, I would be grateful for it. |
Very familiar with the 4335G or GS. I played one for years, but eventually found it limiting and went off in search of a new horn. One thing I did like about it was that within its limitations, it had a very nice sound, perhaps a product of the gold brass bell (something you might look for).
A little depends on what about the 4335 that is making you want a new horn. Is it the tightness in the upper register, the weight of the horn, etc.?
What I did was play a lot of horns. Luckily, work takes me to Tokyo all the time, and I just wandered around used instrument stores trying all kinds of trumpets. I eventually wound up with a Schilke X3L that I just loved from first blow and still find to be the best trumpet I ever have played. What I wanted or discovered that I wanted was a more open horn with easy air flow. So if you can get to some place where you can try horns it is best. Not sure where you are located, but places like the Washington Music Center carry lots of horns and they will let you play all day, talk to Lee Walkowich. Unless you are very clear about what you want, it is the best way to discover what you really want, or at least want now.
You might look at a Yamaha 6335 or perhaps the new 6335RC that is available in Europe. They are reasonably priced and a step up. There is also a 6345G, which is a professional model that I have heard is along th elines of the 6335, but has a gold brass bell. It might be worth playing as a step up horn. I have an older 6335 as a backup horn/outdoor horn and it is quite serviceable, though not as much to my liking as the Schilke. |
Thanks. Yes, the bold text is exactly what it is. It gets quite tight up there, no matter the mpc, and consequently, the sound becomes somewhat anemic. I fought with it for some time until I exhausted all possibilities in terms of embouchure requirement - not that I'm a vet player by any means. Yeah, it's that tightness. Up to and below G above middle C it's not bad at all in terms of the sound. The weight of the trumpet doesn't bother me, in fact, I never give it a second thought.
The six series is where I'm looking at the moment. |
Hi SMrtn
Have you looked at my thread on the mouthpiece forum, concerning the insertion amount of mouthpieces on a Yamaha trumpet? When I first play tested my 8335 Xeno II, I thought that the upper register was tight. I've found that it opens up nicely by increasing the insertion amount of the mouthpiece. Schilke mouthpieces however already insert reasonably far, and I believe that Curry mouthpieces insert further than Bach, so gap may not be the issue with your Yamaha trumpet, rather it could just be owing to it being an intermediate model, and this extra resistance being a design feature. Whatever, the 8335 Xeno II is not tight in the upper register in my opinion, unless the mouthpiece does not insert far enough in the receiver. In fact, I'd say that with the gap dialled in, the 8335 Xeno II has quite an open upper register. I'd suggest trying both the 8335 and 8335G Xeno with the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece, and seeing how you find them, since you otherwise like Yamaha trumpets.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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JVL
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:52 am Post subject: |
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hello
have you tried the new 8310Z ?
and yes, some changes in your mpc's parameters can help (throat and bb sizes). For instance, depending on what i have to play, i can use another version of my lead mpc, with a picc bb, to have a rounder sound; and another version of my "classical" deep #26 throat and symphonic bb mpc, that is with a #24 throat.
best |
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saxophonist56
Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Apr 2013
Posts: 193
Location: ca
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| why not just try some horns? either order them with a return policy or find a store that stocks several brands. no one is going to tell you what horn you will like. |
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agroovin48
Regular Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2014
Posts: 94
Location: Goodyear, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Yamaha Xeno II 8335G with Bobby Shew Jazz mouthpiece.
Yamaha 8310Z with Bobby Shew Jazz mouthpiece.
Lovely, dark and smoky sound!
_________________
agroovin48
Alan Cahill
1933 Conn Victor 80A Cornet
King Legend 2070
Adams A1V2 |
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connicalman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 1668
Location: West Medford, MA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:57 am Post subject: |
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In order of expense:
a. think dark and smokey
b. try a used traditional cornet mouthpiece with an adaptor in your trumpet
c. get a new deep-cup TF (trumpet flugel) mouthpiece
d. be dark and smokey
e. get a cornet or even smokier, a flugelhorn
f. flumpet, anyone? Monette, Osmun Music's Corumpet, Austin Custom Brass's Coppernicus, others...
g. give in to the reality: each of these options will require practice and time.
Good luck!
_________________
kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A... |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| saxophonist56 wrote: | | why not just try some horns? either order them with a return policy or find a store that stocks several brands. no one is going to tell you what horn you will like. |
Did I mention I live out in the sticks in Au and there's no stores selling trumpets in any direction for miles ..... and miles....and a few more miles. Also, if I thought someone would actually be able to tell me what sort of horn I'd like, I'd like to discuss lottery numbers with said person. |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the responses. They're genuinely appreciated. I adhere to the fact that ideas discussed externalise issues and once brought to light in this way, a quicker resolution can be had no matter the topic. And this is true in my case yet again.
I have made a - hopefully - educated choice. Yamaha Xeno. It's everything that I want from a new horn, consistency, build quality, and flexibility of sound.
Thanks again for the responses everyone! |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1548
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: I want a new horn |
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| SMrtn wrote: |
Thanks. Yes, the bold text is exactly what it is. It gets quite tight up there, no matter the mpc, and consequently, the sound becomes somewhat anemic. I fought with it for some time until I exhausted all possibilities in terms of embouchure requirement - not that I'm a vet player by any means. Yeah, it's that tightness. Up to and below G above middle C it's not bad at all in terms of the sound. The weight of the trumpet doesn't bother me, in fact, I never give it a second thought. |
Louise Finch said:
Have you looked at my thread on the mouthpiece forum, concerning the insertion amount of mouthpieces on a Yamaha trumpet?
I don't know about the Zenos, but in my experience with some Yamaha horns, the 4335 and the 6335 in particular, you can get the gap right, but there is a fundamental and pronounced "tightening" characteristic (I think by design, though I do not know how, where they offer substantially more resistance, kind of stepwise, in the upper register). (In fact I was talking to another trumpet player today that plays a 6335, and he observed the same phenomenon, with a completely different mouthpiece on a horn that had been gapped for the mouthpiece.) You can mitigate this effect with proper gap, but the characteristic is part of the horn. It happened lower in the range in the 4335 and higher in the 6335, but more dramatically. You can easily smooth out the transition by backing off your air volume before the horn actually forces you to. This might also be helped with more constricted mouthpieces than I use. The 6335 is in general a more open horn than the 4335. I have not tried adjusting the gap on my old 4335. At one time I thought about trying all kinds of things with it, but then decided it was better not to fight the fundamentals of the horn and move to a new horn like you are contemplating. However, you could get one of the various gap adjusting kits (Harrelson shims, James R New's gap modulator (learned this from Lou), etc.) and experiment. The kit would also be useful for optimizing the gap on any new trumpet you bought.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Last edited by cgaiii on Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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