Horn now stiff and unresponsive

bundah · Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:49 pm Post subject: Horn now stiff and unresponsive

Hi Everyone,
I'll keep it brief but the situation is as follows:
12 months ago I bought a Burbank Benge and loved it! Lightweight, nimble, and loads of sparkle - everything I love in a horn.
Fast forward to now and I can't put my finger on the cause but things have changed - the sparkle and nimbless have gone and the horn feels "stiff" to play. It used to feel alive but now I just can't get it to work the way I would like. The lightning response is gone😢
Is there something in my approach that I have messed up? The horn is in good condition, although it's about time for a valve rebuild. It's also extremely sensitive to minute changes - believe it or not even removing the "o" rings on the slides alters the blow drastically, let alone switching the valve caps around!
Anyway, all input is appreciated.
Cheers!

Tpt_Guy · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:09 am Post subject:

It's probably not only the horn.

What is your usual practice routine? How much time do you spend and on what? Is your routine balanced?

I've had instances where I've experienced a decline somewhere so I devoted more time to it and threw the balance of my routine out of whack, making the situation worse. It wasn't until I took a step back and reviewed fundamentals that I started making progress again.

I've also gotten new equipment and played the hell out of it in ways I normally wouldn't and had to repair myself, again with putting the fundamentals back in.

Sometimes the urge to keep banging away to work through a difficulty is a detriment. Sometimes it's better to either put the horn away or work on something else.

All this said, get the horn checked out anyway. Sometimes it is the equipment, not the player.
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Dayton · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:29 am Post subject:

jadickson · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:34 am Post subject:

Check the water key cork. If it is worn at all, replace it. This makes a surprisingly big difference.

James Becker · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:04 am Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441

JayKosta · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:37 am Post subject:

Also clean the mouthpiece - use a brush if it bad. I always clean/dry the mpc with a Q-tip after every use.

Also clean the leadpipe every month or so - I use a 'pull-thru' and a cloth patch.

Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

JayKosta · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:41 am Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441

Yamahaguy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992

After a year, it could use a good chem clean I'm sure...any build up will
definitely change sound and feel.
And of course worn valves and/or alignment will also affect performance.

FWIW, I second (third?) sending to Jim Becker at Osmun for cleaning and
valve alignment. They currently have one of my Burbank Benges for this exact
service!

JayKosta · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:53 am Post subject:

Check to see if something fell into the bell!
Pencil, bottle cap, tissue, etc.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

James Becker · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:28 am Post subject:

In defense of players that don’t want O-rings on their slides, consider the dampening effect they can have on your instrument. Heck, I’ve been told by a respected professional that he didn’t care for how his trumpet sounded with steel valve springs. I’m not making this up. Apparently there are some very perceptive players out there.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

Sudden dramatic changes in the way a horn plays/responds are typically related to some problem that has rapidly materialized. Examples would be something suddenly clogging the horn and/or mouthpiece, a suddenly leaking water key cork, etc. Gradual changes like additional valve wear don't typically make sudden dramatic changes in performance.

That being said, what you describe is consistent with a horn that needs a valve rebuild so that certainly should be considered if no other cause is found. The deterioration in the horn's performance might not be as drastic as perceived. It may have exhibited signs at the beginning which were not particularly noticed by the OP due to the enthusiasm associated with getting a new (for him) horn. Maybe not, but it's a possibility.
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J-Walk · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:29 pm Post subject:

Brad361 · Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:39 pm Post subject:

Ed Kennedy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187

I once took in a YTR6345 that played like s*&^t. The customer traded it in on an old Bach. After thoroughly checking it out, I ran a chaser through the bell from the valve port and out came a pencil stub. It turned out to be a fine instrument, I gigged with it for about 6 months after.

James Becker · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:52 am Post subject:

shofarguy · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:32 am Post subject:

I used to own a 1976 LA Benge 5X. It got to where it needed a valve rebuild and slides refitted, as they were all pretty loose. These didn't make the horn stiff. Rather they made it so loose it was fairly uncontrollable.

When I did have the slides refitted and the valves rebuilt, the horn came together with great resonance, good slotting with good agility and what I called "The Dance" that is such a core attraction for Benge players.

In my experience, what makes a Benge lose it's sparkle is built up gunk in the horn, or a poorly fit mouthpiece with way too much gap. I've never played a trumpet with something stuck in it, so I don't know what that's like.

The other thing that I've experienced that made my horn stiff was putting vintage Besson bottom caps on the cases. The only difference between the Benge and Besson caps was a small, flat washer size ring around the inside of each cap's vent hole. That tiny bit of added brass killed the free response of my Benge.

Is there something you've changed recently?

Oh, and inspect the mouthpiece receiver for a split.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

James Becker · Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:46 pm Post subject:

I’ve stated this before, but will again here.

At the shop we will inspect and perform our diagnostic tests for FREE on any instrument. We can provide you the data you need to make informed decisions about what is required to get your instrument in peak condition.

If you have doubts, reach out, call, email or book your appointment online.

We look forward to hearing from you. Thanks!
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

lipshurt · Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:08 am Post subject:

This sounds like something that I have had happen a few times over the years: I have played many horns that most folks would consider “vintage” but really are just great playing horns. You get a horn that’s been in storage maybe for decades, and you clean it up a bit and it plays great. Replace water keys, line up slides, relieve pressure in the braces, PVA, do a vacuum or pressure test and it’s pretty good, etc and you’re set. You notice after about two weeks that the valves have a slight discoloration in the oil on them. When you wipe with a piece of paper the paper has a brownish tint to the oil stain. Then after about 6 months that no longer happens. The cacuum or pressure test now show about half as good, and the Horn doesn’t play like it did, and that sneaks up on you because there was some kind of coating of dirt on the valves that gradually wears away, or maybe the coating is on the inside of the casings. When that coating is worn off they leak. I’ve seen it on horns that had been ultrasonically cleaned (or that claim was made). Only thing to do is valve rebuild. Which is worth it if you like the Horn even with loose valves
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