Curing Dents

BrassWizard · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:51 pm Post subject: Curing Dents

Hello all,

This is my first time posting on TrumpetHerald, and I had to switch over to this forum, as Trumpet Master was most-likely dissolved altogether. Some of you will remember me as BrassMaverick from the previous forum. I'm sure this place works in slightly different ways than that of TM, so bear with me as I get accustomed to the changes...

...anyways, to the topic at hand!

My high school band director gave me an out-of-commission Vincent-Bach TR-300 student horn (modern horn, serial number in the 800,000s) to fiddle around with. He said if I could manage to fix it, the horn could be mine to use. It's honestly a simple fix, just some soldering here and there. The top "slide" part of the main tuning slide is stuck inside the leadpipe, with just the end jutting out, but this can be solved by slowly and carefully expanding the brass with heat and pulling the slide out to be soldered to the rest of its correct piping.
A goal of mine was to always own a Gillespie-style horn of my own, and this is horn is in perfect condition to be remodeled into one. Since the bridges between the leadpipe and the bell bore were disconnected, I could already begin to angle the bell upward. It now sits comfortably at a 45-degree angle from the rest of the horn.
However, there arose one problem: since the crook was the only point from which the bell could bend upward, the brass thinned and "crumpled" under the pressure (not torn/split, however). For those with experience in brass repair, here's a thought. I do not trust our local music/repair store with the "repair" side of the job. They have received poor reviews across the board. I have considered a home-style, cost-efficient way I can approach this: fill the affected area with water and freeze to expand the brass outward, while closely monitoring the horn to make sure the brass does not overexpand. It's risky, but it could work if great caution is administered.
Would you consider this method? It's the only thing I can think of at the moment. I am open to hearing any suggestions or home methods you have found successful in a situation like this.

I will post images as soon as I figure out how to attach files.

Thanks!
_________________
Trumpets:
Getzen 3051 Custom Series
1947 Holton Collegiate (cornet)
1927 American Heritage
1956 York U.S.A. (flugelhorn)

Mouthpieces:
Getzen 1C (trumpets)
Vincent-Bach 1C (cornets)
Yamaha 16F4 (flugelhorns)

BrassWizard · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:02 pm Post subject:

Hopefully that works.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5ectzOnPLQkVUFDci12RDZIY3JPbEhvckNKd3RlTWNoZGtJ

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5ectzOnPLQkZ2JwVTJKalU4S3ZSZ1FjSlJvSHJ5ZHRyempz
_________________
Trumpets:
Getzen 3051 Custom Series
1947 Holton Collegiate (cornet)
1927 American Heritage
1956 York U.S.A. (flugelhorn)

Mouthpieces:
Getzen 1C (trumpets)
Vincent-Bach 1C (cornets)
Yamaha 16F4 (flugelhorns)

jhatpro · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:52 pm Post subject:

Welcome to Trumpet Herald, Wiz! I think you said it best - the freeze-to-bend procedure sounds “risky.”

To ensure success I suggest you ship it to an experienced brass tech. The cost will be more, of course, but the results are likely to be much better.

A little searching on TH will yield plenty of highly qualified resources.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

theslawdawg · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject:

"...home-style, cost-efficient way..." usually doesn't equate to good trumpet repair at the technical level you require for this one.

_________________
My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs

JayKosta · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Curing Dents

Ed Kennedy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187

HaveTrumpetWillTravel · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:55 pm Post subject:

The street value of a student Bach with a bent/crumpled bell, detached braces and broken leadpipe is probably <$100, so I don't think it's necessarily bad to use it as an experiment.

It sounds like you are keen on soldering, so if you have the skills it might be better to find another bell and make your own frankehorn. If you want to try dent balls, I suppose that's another direction. I've seen some homemade dizzy trumpets, and to me they all look pretty terrible (the brace seems to be a big problem), but since you're already part-way there, it doesn't hurt to try some things out.

Both solder and dent balls are above my capacity, but maybe some day you'll be repair tech, or perhaps at least the parent who helps the band director pull mouthpieces, loosen slides, and clean instruments. Good luck!

BrassWizard · Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:03 pm Post subject:

JayKosta,

I believe there was a slight misinterpretation, and I blame myself for lack of detail, so allow me to clarify. The band director literally handed over the horn and said "Do what you want with it." He didn't assign me to repair and return it. This was a horn owned by the school, not rented from the music store. The school's music program isn't kept up enough to generate the time or money needed to repair too many of its instruments.

In short, there was no "permission" needed for anything. It's (so far) a non-functional horn the director can't bother trying to fix himself, due to insufficient resources.

I hope that cleared things up contextually.
_________________
Trumpets:
Getzen 3051 Custom Series
1947 Holton Collegiate (cornet)
1927 American Heritage
1956 York U.S.A. (flugelhorn)

Mouthpieces:
Getzen 1C (trumpets)
Vincent-Bach 1C (cornets)
Yamaha 16F4 (flugelhorns)

JayKosta · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:15 am Post subject:

Since you seemed determined to work on the horn, I suggest you stop for a while and learn about good repair technique.

I have found the info here quite useful - it won't answer your immediate questions, but is a good guide to 'how to do it right'.

http://redwingmusicrepair.org/portfolios/JHuth/pdfs/Piston_and_Casing_Repairs_2_13_15.pdf

http://redwingmusicrepair.org/portfolios/JHuth/pdfs/BIR_Brass_Manual_inspecting_brasswinds.pdf

A critical part of instrument repair is to NOT cause more damage by doing it wrong! And that means knowing the 'proper way' before attempting DIY hacks.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

James Becker · Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:32 am Post subject:

As a practitioner with over 40 years experience I can appreciate your curiosity, it’s what got me started in the first place. However, before you end up doing irreversible damage you owe it to yourself to get proper guidance or defer the work to someone with the necessary skills to do it right. Like anything else, there are no short cuts, it doesn’t happen overnight. Either you plan to develop the skills first or don’t bother at all.

We’d all like to play like (insert name of artist). How can I do that? Practice, preparation and plenty of time to achieve success.

My two cents.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US