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theslawdawg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 843
Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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 Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| rburrows wrote: | Very interesting responses...and interesting assumptions of my abilities and where I am in my career.
I tried to be clear that i was not looking for a magic mouthpiece to fix all my issues. I do realize that intelligent practice is what has and will contnue to make me a good player.
I’m pretty sure that lead players usually don’t tend to play the same gear that an orchestral player does. That said I’m sure Maynard could probably out play me on a Bach 1 1/2 C hands down.
I just wondered if anyone previously playing a 5c had gained any help by playing a shallower 5. And if so which...5sw or 5d?
So thanks all for you thoughts. I guess the take away is that I’m on my own to command my fate. |
Yes, you will get that here. There is always the group that will say the same thing....get a teacher, ask a teacher, don't ever switch mouthpieces, get stronger, be more efficient. But sometimes, it really is the equipment.
Try a 5D (or something around the same diameter you play and shallower), and tell us how it works! I primarily play on a deep cup mouthpiece but when I have to play lead....I do have a shallow mouthpiece that I use. It's just more efficient for me (I don't dare say easier).
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My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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RussellDDixon
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 832
Location: Mason, OH
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Yes, you will get that here. There is always the group that will say the same thing....get a teacher, ask a teacher, don't ever switch mouthpieces, get stronger, be more efficient. But sometimes, it really is the equipment.
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+1
I have found through years of EXPERIMENTATION that a 10.5 diameter works best for my physiological make-up so I use several pieces in that diameter such as the Patrick 12C; LOUD 10.5C; Marcinkiewicz Model 6 and Mt Vernon Bach 10.5C and Claude Gordon Personal for practice etc. I tried to play a 7C diameter for many years and struggled on it.
Additionally, I have found that (due to my individual physiology), I can play a very shallow v-cup; thus, all of my "lead" pieces are very shallow configurations of the 1950 or 1960's Maynard Ferguson mouthpieces. I have about ten different configurations of that piece that I have compiled over time. I got stuck at a high Ab for many years playing a Schilke 13a4.
I have also found (through experimentation) ... that I prefer a Large bore trumpet that resonates and thus play the Schilke X3 (and love the Bach Stradivarius NY 7 also).
The hundreds of professional players out there all arrived at their present equipment preferences from trying differing equipment.
Dr. Bill Churchville (of TOP fame) once told me that (as an individual player) you have to determine exactly where you want to feel the resistance. Where within the mouthpiece and/or where within the trumpet. I have found that I like to feel it right within the cup and (at times) within the throat of the mouthpiece.
I discovered all of this from "trying out" different pieces and trumpets.
My advice is to "try out" different pieces etc. and if you get a huge boost from a mouthpiece or trumpet change ... that's YOUR GAIN.
Of course practicing correctly makes a huge difference.
I never had a private trumpet teacher due to the era I grew up in and the part of the woods I grew up in ... and yet, I was exposed to several "trumpet teachers" who absolutely did not know what they were doing. Their individual playing proved it and furthermore, they did not have a clue (and still don't) about compressing air.
My thoughts from my own experience.
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Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
Last edited by RussellDDixon on Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| rburrows wrote: | Very interesting responses...and interesting assumptions of my abilities and where I am in my career.
I tried to be clear that i was not looking for a magic mouthpiece to fix all my issues. I do realize that intelligent practice is what has and will contnue to make me a good player.
I’m pretty sure that lead players usually don’t tend to play the same gear that an orchestral player does. That said I’m sure Maynard could probably out play me on a Bach 1 1/2 C hands down.
I just wondered if anyone previously playing a 5c had gained any help by playing a shallower 5. And if so which...5sw or 5d?
So thanks all for you thoughts. I guess the take away is that I’m on my own to command my fate. |
Well.....here’s the thing. Your very first sentence indicated that you would like to “up (your) range a note or two.” I think many of us took from that statement that you’re hoping a mouthpiece would do that. I (and possibly others) don’t believe a mouthpiece would, unless maybe you happened to currently be using equipment that is VERY wrong for you. I don’t know if assumptions were being made regarding your ability or experience level, maybe they were, that sometimes happens here and on other forums. And if they were made, the “note or two” statement probably contributed to it.
I believe most of us would agree with you that lead/commercial players often use equipment that is different from orchestral players. As far as you being on your own with this, you pretty much are, as are most of us. We take away what seems helpful from a forum like this, discard what isn’t. Keeping things in perspective though, we trumpet players are fortunate in that if we do decide to make an equipment change, it’s relatively inexpensive. We just all need to avoid falling into the trap of “equipment safaris.”
Best of luck!
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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lakejw
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 543
Location: Brooklyn, New York
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Lots of good responses here - mostly that range is a technique issue, not a gear issue. Which is correct, generally speaking.
However, if you are playing lead, be it in a school band, on gigs, or with your buddies, you will want something smaller than a 5C. Lead equipment is not about adding range, it is about efficiency.
We all know what a great lead player sounds like. So when we play lead, we try to sound like our favorite studio recording of [insert your favorite lead player here]. On a large mouthpiece, creating that sizzle and volume in an *acoustic* setting requires a LOT of work, and can be damaging to one's embouchure and overall trumpet-playing-mechanism in the long run.
I personally developed serious embouchure and response issues after a couple particularly damaging long-term performing situations I found myself in. Playing on a 3C, of course. It took me years and years of arduous chop-resetting to repair these issues.
So yes, try a shallower mouthpiece. Try a mouthpiece with a more restrictive backbore. Experiment affordably. You're not going to be a worse player, or doing the "wrong thing" by using a smaller mouthpiece.
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Last edited by lakejw on Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lakejw
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 543
Location: Brooklyn, New York
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | We just all need to avoid falling into the trap of “equipment safaris.” |
Nothing wrong with a mouthpiece safari, provided you eventually find something that works.
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New Album "ensemble | in situ" on Bandcamp
johnlakejazz.com |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| lakejw wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | We just all need to avoid falling into the trap of “equipment safaris.” |
Nothing wrong with a mouthpiece safari, provided you eventually find something that works. |
Ok.
When I think of “equipment safaris”, I think of someone trying to correct playing inadequacies with equipment, but I agree with the right tool for the job line of thinking.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| lakejw wrote: | | So yes, try a shallower mouthpiece. Try a mouthpiece with a more restrictive backbore. Experiment affordably. You're not going to be a worse player, or doing the "wrong thing" by using a smaller mouthpiece. |
I concur but would add that you need to be sensitive to what works and what trade-offs it makes. And once you find something advantageous, stick with it for a good while trying to be objective about pros and cons. Try to avoid falling into the trap that if a little smaller, shallower, tighter is good, then more is better.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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kozzicomma
Regular Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2018
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | Well.....here’s the thing. Your very first sentence indicated that you would like to “up (your) range a note or two.” I think many of us took from that statement that you’re hoping a mouthpiece would do that. |
My apologies to the OP, but that's exactly what i took from the post and question. But for reference, it took me a good bit of experimentation to find the right mouthpiece for me. Sure, my teacher helped me start narrowing down and confirmed improvements in sound production, flexibility, response, etc., but a lot of it was up to me to discover. I like Warburton mouthpieces. I just like the way they feel, so I settled on their 5MD with a 10* backbore for most of my "legit" playing. 6M with 8 backbore for piccolo, although i'm curious about their shallower cups for that. I'd likely use the same setup as piccolo for lead playing, although I'm currently not playing lead.
Bottom line is, you actually need to have a pretty good idea of the general specs that feel right for you and give you the qualities you're looking for in whatever medium you're playing in. If you were an experienced player, (not saying you're not, but hypothetically speaking) I would immediately say "you're not going to find a mouthpiece to increase your range". This statement assumes that you've done the experimentation already and have settled on a general specification of mouthpiece/mouthpieces, backbore, throat, etc. combination that allows you to maximize your potential in whatever medium. But i'd guess an inexperienced player will not have done the experimentation for which I would say "Find a shop that has a lot of options for mouthpieces that they'll allow you to try out. Spend a good bit of time with different pieces and find what feels good, gives you the response, sound, flexibility, etc. you're looking for in your general "non-lead" playing situation. Then start making some minor changes in either direction until you find the right combination for lead playing."
Again, i'm a fan of the Warburton system, but really any system like that i'd prefer, so that i could swap parts out until I've dialed in to what i'm looking for. A lot of people on here will probably slam me for saying this, but if you play a Bach 5C I'd guess that you'd be comfortable on a 5 or 6 Warburton. I'd suggest starting with a 6SV / 7* backbore for lead playing and a 5MC or 5MD / 8 backbore (or their new 8CR, if the shop has it) for "legit" playing. I know that neither of these are equivalent to the Bach 5C, but I'm speaking from my own experience in how they feel to me versus the Bach 5C. Again, physiology plays into this a lot too, so you may have a different experience. By the way, I'm not a Warburton salesman, but I just have no experience with other modular systems, so I can't speak to those.
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Bb: Yamaha YTR-6335HS MV (Mike Vax), Bach 37
C: Bach 229H 25H
Picc: Brasspire Unicorn
Pocket Bb: ACB Doubler's
G Bugle: Dynasty 3-valve |
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Dan_El_Trompetiste
New Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2017
Posts: 5
Location: Canyon Country, California
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| Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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It's a lot more complicated than that depending on how your body is physically. A lot of players can switch equipment and sound/do exactly the same as always. Myself, it's a lot harder to do that; I need very specific equipment or else the whole thing goes to crap. Definitely explore your options if you can afford it; sometimes the right lead piece for someone can be a M or even C type cup and bigger rim diameter and throat.
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Phaeton LV-1200 Bb Trumpet
1951 Conn 22b BbTrumpet
Warburton 5SV/4 Backbore
Bob Reeves 42S/692s |
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JVL
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hello
"sounding always like ourselves" whatever the equipment used is one thing, having ease, comfort and efficiency is another one... |
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MiddleStaff
Regular Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2019
Posts: 13
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I started (as we all did) with a 7C, went to the 5C where you are now. I struggled with the upper range. My problem was that the rim size was too small for me. I found that out by exploring mouthpieces with wider cup (rim diameters). So I tried a Shilke 11 and that helped. Then I found a Shilke 14A4A. That took me to a high F. The tight back bore helped for years. After more development, I went to a 13A4. A little smaller cup diameter and Shilke's regular backbore which helped me deliver a bit more air. That helped me get up further. And am back to a Shilke 14A4 (without the A backbore- it's got a standard one which is more open). It's a process so try different mouthpieces.
Having said that- the other posts are correct. Having the fundamentals first (powerful air stream, strong embouchure, correct tongue position, etc.) will go a long way.
Here's a guide on mouthpieces for reference:
https://trumpet.biz/trumpet-mouthpieces/trumpet-mouthpiece-guide/
_________________
1972 Bach Strad model 180 with #37 bell
Yamaha YFH-631GS Flugelhorn
Last edited by MiddleStaff on Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:51 am Post subject: |
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quote MiddleStaff:
Here's a guide on mouthpieces for reference:
https://trumpet.biz/trumpet-mouthpieces/trumpet-mouthpiece-guide/
Nice professional link, first the very disputable call for the inevitable 7C, than the 7C you certainly don't want, the newer Bach 7C, then the infamous Shilke (!) 14A4a, then the famous Bobby Shrew, enough for me.
It's no problem if you have not any knowledge of mouthpieces, you can be very happy without that, but why then writing advices about them? |
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Jon Arnold
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002
Posts: 2025
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: |
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A Bach 5C is a great mouthpiece relatively deep. I would consider something with a more shallow cup and a tighter backbore. No mouthpiece will magically give you anything but it may make it easier to play in the upper register for longer periods of time (efficiency) and give you the sound and projection you need for the job.
Many have said you have to figure out what works best for you, and I agree with that statement. There are many great mouthpiece makers out there and tons of options to choose from. I have tried about everything out there and I am using Pickett for any commercial playing I do with great success. You can save a lot of time and money by going to a mouthpiece maker for a fitting.
Here are a few suggestions of things to consider.
1. Backbores. Pickett 10-5 or V.
2. Cups, E or D cup works well.
3. Pickett commercial mouthpiece works as a great match with my Bach Commercial trumpet.
https://www.pickettblackburn.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107_108&products_id=1544&zenid=mhfvgcb57i1gnh2aaoguhd1vf3
Also look at the Pickett mouthpiece app. You can compare different mouthpiece makes and look for an equivalent to your Bach.
Please feel free to PM if me if you need anything.
Last edited by Jon Arnold on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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There's no way I would recommend any 5C player wanting a little more endurance to go immediately to a 14A4a or Shew Lead. I've encountered too many players who do so for incremental gains in range and endurance while taking a major hit on tone quality.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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