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collapsed embouchure?



 
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 875
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: collapsed embouchure? Reply with quote

Well, not that my embouchure has collapsed - more of an instant assault when I get tired - which in itself is rather uncommon these days - thanks to the BE, i.e. Roll Ins mostly - combined with the rest.
Practicing the BE method more than 4 years now, if not longer, my chops have become rather solid - my ability to sit on that lead chair in that not so very good big band (although improving if no by the minute so by the year..) has developed but recently I´ve come to think that the days when I could play a decent E above the staff, or more, were gone, belonging to the nowadays far away younger years. I can blow the consecutive Roll Ins always beginning at high C, further more within say 20 minutes, still feeling fresh. Then repeating the sequence. And many times beginning on Eb, E.
But last monday when I for the umpteenth time read the book again - page 144 - what did I find - "bottom lip anchor position.......blowing hair out of your eyes..."Yep - I´ve read it many times but.....so this time I tried to apply it. But after a short while my lips seem to swell. Next day again and suddenly - oh my what a difference. I´m overwhelmed! Suddenly I can play with a fat big tone in that shallow mouthpiece, even the Superchops nr 1 sounds great! And the high register suddenly seems not that closed....Just can´t wait until big band rehearsal Wednesday.
In fact it was "JVL" who suggested my lips protruding too deep into the mpc - as a response to a post where I complained of my seemingly eternal problems combining front row cornet with lead trumpet - even if I used the same rim, almost the same mouthpiece.
So bottom lip collapsing inwards.... that might be what has hindered me.
And yes I know - I should have consulted the ingenious mr Smiley long time ago.
Could it be that I am on the right track????
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 875
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: collapsed embouchure? Reply with quote

.........................
So bottom lip collapsing inwards.... that might be what has hindered me.
And yes I know - I should have consulted the ingenious mr Smiley long time ago.
Could it be that I am on the right track????[/quote]


Hallo! Busy throwing out the Christmas tree? Practicing? I can´t be the only only one not using my bottom lip properly? Or??
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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danny45635
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Feb 2015
Posts: 508
Location: Long Island, New York

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn’t the same as your scenario, but I hope this will help. I reworked my chops after an overuse injury about a year ago. I would constantly worry about my chops, and be very conscious about my setup, and I would try to change things constantly, usually just making things worse, while I trying to recover.

I had things like weird air leaks and trembling, and sometimes my chops would just randomly give out. But what fixed it for me was actually just not thinking about my setup, but thinking about the sound I wanted, and trusting the what I was doing would work, rather than trying to change things to “instantly” get my chops back. Now I just put the horn up, think of the sound I want, and play.

I have been practicing with an interval timer for 8 minutes of playing and 4 minutes of rest since I saw a post on Facebook about practicing, and it has helped my endurance dramatically, and I stay fresh most days for my first two practice sessions.

Hope this helps,
Dan
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Eastman School of Music 2021
1965 Bach 37, Bach 236 D, Bach Artisan C, Schilke P5-4
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 875
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

danny45635 wrote:
This isn’t the same as your scenario, but I hope this will help. I reworked my chops after an overuse injury about a year ago. I would constantly worry about my chops, and be very conscious about my setup, and I would try to change things constantly, usually just making things worse, while I trying to recover.

I had things like weird air leaks and trembling, and sometimes my chops would just randomly give out. But what fixed it for me was actually just not thinking about my setup, but thinking about the sound I wanted, and trusting the what I was doing would work, rather than trying to change things to “instantly” get my chops back. Now I just put the horn up, think of the sound I want, and play.

I have been practicing with an interval timer for 8 minutes of playing and 4 minutes of rest since I saw a post on Facebook about practicing, and it has helped my endurance dramatically, and I stay fresh most days for my first two practice sessions.

Hope this helps,
Dan


Danny! Thanks for the reply - you have managed to pick up some not that constructive tendencies I have.....yes I´m rather busy trying to improve, to fill that lead chair in spite of my age (77) - at the same time maintaining a high level front row in the brass band.
I dived straight into the overuse syndrom 5 years ago when I finally got the time to practice.....seems I have a tendency of overdoing things..... Experiencing the same symptoms you did. At the end barely able to produce a normal C in the staff...so you could say that I have re invented my embouchure after that breakdown. Mainly through the BE but also I took lessons (the first in my life)- very very helpful - still do. I practice much like you, 3-4 times a day, maybe 30 minutes every time, trying to have pauses whenever I feel lactid acid building up. At my age I feel I have to invest more in practice than I had to in younger days.

Anyhow - what I have experienced is that my bottom lip caves in, sort of, probably resulting in too much pressure on my top lip - vibrations stall.
Rereading the BE book indicated that I should make myself aware of this and that a way of avoiding it could be what mr Smiley suggested.
As I understand this also means that my embouchure gets a tad more puckered. But I may be wrong!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3097
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor, the overarching thing about BE is that it gives you some logical and safe ways to experiment outside your normal lip range-of-motion without getting lost. You may indeed be correcting what I call a "broken" embouchure.

Go down the path a bit and see what happens.

I always appreciate your comments, BE or otherwise. At 77, you are an inspiration to us all.

Jeff
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 875
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Seymor, the overarching thing about BE is that it gives you some logical and safe ways to experiment outside your normal lip range-of-motion without getting lost. You may indeed be correcting what I call a "broken" embouchure.

Go down the path a bit and see what happens.

I always appreciate your comments, BE or otherwise. At 77, you are an inspiration to us all.

Jeff



Thanks for the kind words! "Such sweet inspiration" I played long time ago - yes last big band rehearsal was probably one of the best in my life but it doesn´t come cheaply......I have to practice a lot - but I truly believe in the Japanese concept "Kaizen" - constant improvement and the BE method goes hand in glove with that!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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View user's profile Send private message
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