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rick.willoughby@cox.net
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:16 pm    Post subject: Note target size Reply with quote

I have read of some horns that have a larger note target. Can someone explain this? I have one horn that seems to have a large target and is very easy to sight play another that when sight reading it is necessary to go over the passage a few times to efficiently find some notes. I am in the market for a horn and really want that larger target! But I have no idea what causes one to be larger than the other!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "target notes" you are talking about in your post regarding equipment means that some horn have their notes locked in with no flexibility and "looser targets" means notes that have a wider range to a pitch i.e. not so locked in.

In other words, on a horn with precise or "locked-in" slotting, that means if you go for an E you either hit it precisely or not at all while on looser slotting, "target", your E has a wider pitch-center.

This is not to be confused with target notes in theory or musical interpretation, improvised or written.
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rick.willoughby@cox.net
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok that makes sense and I understand the theoretical targets. So what makes one horn have a locked in target and another have looser targets? Thanks for your response!
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SterlingBell
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure what makes a horn slot tight or loose. I tend to think Bach Strads are loose and Yamaha,Schilke,Jupiter are tight slotting. All of these brands are fine horns, they just have a different approach in how they respond to your input.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always felt that Bach Strads were more locked in, too. A Martin Committee is loose.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I always felt that Bach Strads were more locked in, too. A Martin Committee is loose.

I have always found Bachs to have tighter slots also.

To the OP, it is probably better to work on your accuracy, rather than find a looser slotting horn. After all you want to get to the point where you can hit the pitch accurately 100% of the time.

I find lip slurs help me a lot in accuracy. I use Clarke’s Technical Studies and David Hickman’s Beyond The C to dial in.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
I always felt that Bach Strads were more locked in, too. A Martin Committee is loose.

I have always found Bachs to have tighter slots also.

To the OP, it is probably better to work on your accuracy, rather than find a looser slotting horn. After all you want to get to the point where you can hit the pitch accurately 100% of the time.

I find lip slurs help me a lot in accuracy. I use Clarke’s Technical Studies and David Hickman’s Beyond The C to dial in.


And practice sight-singing. Do this to the point you can "hear" the intervals you're supposed to play as you're reading down a chart. This will make it easier to hit the targets and not be reliant on a horn to be a crutch.

Since it's advisable to "rest as much as you play" do this during rest periods to keep productive and continue developing skills.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you're actually singing a note below what you are reading. How to you address the difference?
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
But you're actually singing a note below what you are reading. How to you address the difference?

Good point. I have always been a singer. When I took voice lessons in my twenties after college I discovered I was a better vocal musician.

But, other than hearing intervals, I don’t find singing to be any help playing trumpet. Solely my experience, I fully understand others might find otherwise.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
But you're actually singing a note below what you are reading. How to you address the difference?


I'm a little confused as to how that would even come up as an issue. A person trained to play a Bb trumpet is aurally and visually oriented around pitches for a Bb trumpet. If he sees a written C, he is likely to sing a concert Bb anyway.

I suppose it could come up when playing horns in other keys, such as C, Eb, etc.

But if that is a problem use Movable Do or even pitch numbers corresponding to the order of pitches of the key. That's what I studied in college and I have no issue sight singing what's in front of me and can transpose it to any other corresponding scale. This also means learning C, Eb and piccolo weren't unnecessarily challenging for me.

The idea is being able to hear the intervals. Let's say you are playing a written second line G and the next note is a top line F. If you can't hear a minor 7 interval, you are likely to chip the F, aim low and play a D, or overshoot and play an Ab. The further up the harmonic series, the more dangerous it becomes.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
But you're actually singing a note below what you are reading. How to you address the difference?


I'm a little confused as to how that would even come up as an issue. A person trained to play a Bb trumpet is aurally and visually oriented around pitches for a Bb trumpet. If he sees a written C, he is likely to sing a concert Bb anyway.

I suppose it could come up when playing horns in other keys, such as C, Eb, etc.

But if that is a problem use Movable Do or even pitch numbers corresponding to the order of pitches of the key. That's what I studied in college and I have no issue sight singing what's in front of me and can transpose it to any other corresponding scale. This also means learning C, Eb and piccolo weren't unnecessarily challenging for me.

The idea is being able to hear the intervals. Let's say you are playing a written second line G and the next note is a top line F. If you can't hear a minor 7 interval, you are likely to chip the F, aim low and play a D, or overshoot and play an Ab. The further up the harmonic series, the more dangerous it becomes.

The issue is that the pitch one sings for a written C is different than the pitch one plays on the trumpet.

It is kind of like encouraging one to practice on a C trumpet to improve one’s accuracy on Bb.

However, as you point out, this might not be an issue for some.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:

The issue is that the pitch one sings for a written C is different than the pitch one plays on the trumpet.

Says who? That assumes everyone is trained to sight sing in concert pitch only. I don't know anyone who plays a transposing instrument and sight sings as you describe. I can see this being the case for non-transposing instruments, but that wouldn't be a problem.

It is kind of like encouraging one to practice on a C trumpet to improve one’s accuracy on Bb.

I'm not suggesting that at all.

However, as you point out, this might not be an issue for some.

The only musicians I've met who have an issue with it have perfect pitch.


To be clear, I'm not talking about singing along with a piano or another instrument. Of course singing to a piano but a minor second down would be foolish. I'm talking about learning to hear intervals in any key and singing the piece in front of you by yourself. If you can hear intervals, it doesn't matter if the black dots are in concert pitch or not when you are singing by yourself.

I suppose I may just be looking at it from a different angle. I was taught numerical sight singing and we drilled transposing to myrad keys while reading from a single sheet. The professor would play a reference pitch and we would sing. He would then play another and we would sing the same but around a different tonal center. The idea was to drill into our heads the seeing and hearing of intervals between notes without having to worry about solfegge syllables or being locked into specific keys. Seeing a P4 we would sing that interval, no matter what pitch we were on, for example.

Singers can do this also. Many a rehearsal in chamber singers we would sing madrigals transposed up or down while reading the same parts. Nobody had a problem with seeing a G and actually singing an A.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only vocalists who would ever have trouble sight singing in a transposed key are those with perfect pitch. Not very many singers.

The skill is to imagine accurately the interval you are aiming to play, then connecting the embouchure to the imagined pitch. It IS similar to singing accurately, but has to be built separately and distinctly.

Large Note Targets: I have found a few things about this. I think it's a different thing, but related to slotting. Slotting is how strongly the horn wants to center in on each note and is felt most when playing arpeggios or slurs. There is a crisp snappy movement between the notes that requires a bit of determined effort, but is rewarded with accuracy in landing the note.

Note targets are the pitch range over which each note can easily be played with resonance. Some notes naturally have larger targets than others. I find that B Natural in the staff has the smallest target, followed by bottom line E Natural. If I am playing in an ensemble that tunes to Concert Bb or to Concert E, I have latitude with tuning those notes. I might end up low in the target zone. This may pitch my E Natural unnaturally high in the scale. If I am playing with too much tension when I tune, I might be a bit high in the target and my B Natural sounds awfully low. Personally, I think it's a better idea to tune to Concert A (my B Natural) which gives the best chance of a proper scale.

I have played two distinct trumpets which had large note targets, but way different and unusual slotting. The Kanstul 1410 Convertible when configured for Bb has strong slotting, but large note targets. It actually feels hard to lip slur arpeggios, and the player still has to hear and "know" where each pitch needs to fall, because the horn ain't gonna help you!. It was work!

The second trumpet with unusually large note targets is the Adams A8. When I played one at the NAMM show a number of years ago, I found the horn nigh unplayable, pitch-wise. It's slotting felt kind of normal, certainly not rigid, but I'll be danged if I could play a descending Bb scale with the same pitches as the corresponding ascending scale. Not even once was I successful in doing it!

On the other hand, I used to have a 1976 Benge 5X that had worn-out valves and loose valve slides. It had almost no discernible slotting left, but the note targets were pretty normal. Playing that horn in that condition took concentration, but it was not unmanageable. Certainly, it was easier after the valves and slides were refitted!
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pitch, (mind-bending), and transposition woes or eagerness for exploration? Try Stamp's little book, and Truax's keyboard/axe 2-handed work based on those exercises. Just my 2 cents.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SterlingBell wrote:
Not sure what makes a horn slot tight or loose. I tend to think Bach Strads are loose and Yamaha,Schilke,Jupiter are tight slotting. All of these brands are fine horns, they just have a different approach in how they respond to your input.


[edited] Another thing that affects slotting on trumpets is the mouthpiece gap. The general rule is that a larger gap will tighten the slotting and a narrower gap will loosen slotting. So it is possible that the difference in slotting my be a difference in mouthpiece gap. (Choosing your gap is not just a matter of slotting, but it is affected.)
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Last edited by cgaiii on Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
SterlingBell wrote:
Not sure what makes a horn slot tight or loose. I tend to think Bach Strads are loose and Yamaha,Schilke,Jupiter are tight slotting. All of these brands are fine horns, they just have a different approach in how they respond to your input.


Another thing that affects slotting on trumpets is the mouthpiece gap. The general rule is that a larger gap will loosen the slotting and a narrower gap will tighten slotting. So it is possible that the difference in slotting my be a difference in mouthpiece gap. (Choosing your gap is not just a matter of slotting, but it is affected.)


My experience has been the opposite, with a wider gap tightening slotting and seeming to stretch the distance between partials, and a narrower gap loosening slots to the point of making the slots almost "slippery" but seem closer together.

Here is how Reeves characterizes it:

https://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm

He doesn't really talk about slotting. What I stated above is my own experience.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:

The issue is that the pitch one sings for a written C is different than the pitch one plays on the trumpet.

Says who? That assumes everyone is trained to sight sing in concert pitch only. I don't know anyone who plays a transposing instrument and sight sings as you describe. I can see this being the case for non-transposing instruments, but that wouldn't be a problem.

It is kind of like encouraging one to practice on a C trumpet to improve one’s accuracy on Bb.

I'm not suggesting that at all.

However, as you point out, this might not be an issue for some.

The only musicians I've met who have an issue with it have perfect pitch.


To be clear, I'm not talking about singing along with a piano or another instrument. Of course singing to a piano but a minor second down would be foolish. I'm talking about learning to hear intervals in any key and singing the piece in front of you by yourself. If you can hear intervals, it doesn't matter if the black dots are in concert pitch or not when you are singing by yourself.

I suppose I may just be looking at it from a different angle. I was taught numerical sight singing and we drilled transposing to myrad keys while reading from a single sheet. The professor would play a reference pitch and we would sing. He would then play another and we would sing the same but around a different tonal center. The idea was to drill into our heads the seeing and hearing of intervals between notes without having to worry about solfegge syllables or being locked into specific keys. Seeing a P4 we would sing that interval, no matter what pitch we were on, for example.

Singers can do this also. Many a rehearsal in chamber singers we would sing madrigals transposed up or down while reading the same parts. Nobody had a problem with seeing a G and actually singing an A.

I have been very careful in my comments to only post my experience.

For instance, I personally do not find thinking intervals helps me personally at all, neither in sight singing nor in playing the trumpet. In fact intervals never enter into my mind. That certainly doesn't mean others don't.

In addition, there have been many here on TH that have posted about the difficulties in learning to play a C trumpet after learning on and playing a Bb. That they have to adjust to hearing the pitch that is off by a full step.

Since intervals don't enter into my mind when playing I of course didn't understand your post's point, and I apologize for that.

But you also make a similar mistake in assuming I was referring to sight singing when I stated "The issue is that the pitch one sings for a written C is different than the pitch one plays on the trumpet."
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
SterlingBell wrote:
Not sure what makes a horn slot tight or loose. I tend to think Bach Strads are loose and Yamaha,Schilke,Jupiter are tight slotting. All of these brands are fine horns, they just have a different approach in how they respond to your input.


Another thing that affects slotting on trumpets is the mouthpiece gap. The general rule is that a larger gap will loosen the slotting and a narrower gap will tighten slotting. So it is possible that the difference in slotting my be a difference in mouthpiece gap. (Choosing your gap is not just a matter of slotting, but it is affected.)


In my experience the factors are, in order of impact:
1 leadpipe into tuning slide geometry (this includes gap, venturi, taper, crook radii, and overall conicity)
2 acoustic couplings
3 distribution of mass

(assuming no obvious errors such as leaks, dents, or attachment of independent resonators)

However, these things interact complexly as a system, so the effect of a given manipulation of one of them on horn A will not always repeat the same way on horn B.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:


My experience has been the opposite, with a wider gap tightening slotting and seeming to stretch the distance between partials, and a narrower gap loosening slots to the point of making the slots almost "slippery" but seem closer together.

Here is how Reeves characterizes it:

https://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm

He doesn't really talk about slotting. What I stated above is my own experience.

Thanks for correcting my error. I am not sure, other than being tired, why I stated it backwards. You stated it correctly. I will see if I can correct my original and not mess people up.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the biggest determiners of slotting are:

1) valve fit. Valves can be "tight" and still have some areas of the valve where it is less tight. Look at a valve piston and notice areas that are more shiny than other areas. That is where it is less light, and air can leak at the shiny areas. If the shiny area touches a port if for sure is leaking there even if only a little, and even if the horn has a great pressure test or vacuum test result. Exactly where the shiny areas touch the ports affect which notes if any might be affected. The location of a slight leak is going to hit on the nodal point of maybe one or two notes. And then if you move your main slide a bit it could even throw those nodal points into diferent places enough to change the horn depending on where the main slide is. some good playing horns have a lot of shiny areas and those are going to unique to that horn. If the shiny areas were in different places the horn moight play very different maybe way worse. Maybe way worse just on one or two notes. If the shiny areas are extensive the horn probably plays less than great, and for sure more loose in the slots on many more notes. Even a horn with pretty leaky valves is going to have many great feeling good good slotting notes.

2) other leak somewhere on the horn. Most likely an amado water key. Those things leak. at least half of them leak. put soap on it and plug one end of the slide and blow on the other. If you see bubbles its a leak. When people say they like amado water keys, it very well may be because they like the slight leak right there. It affects the G on top of the staff. It works like a subtle vienna key and all ows for a few notes to be easier to bend into tune. or it might make the horn play worse. Its better if they dont leak, but its subtle enough to make you think that the leak does not really matter.
A leak like a loose solder joint is more drastic, but even then that horn is going to have great feeling noes and those great notes might loose magic if the joint is fixed. A player can play on a loose joint and never know. Or a loose joint just makes it terrible depends on how loose it is.

3) Bell and leadpipe tapers. this is where th character of the sound, the intonation, the response, the etc come from. The slots should still be pretty solid even on a horn like the martin committee. A martin with good valves wont be terribly loose. It should play great, maybe a little loose but not sloppy and not uneven, and with good intonation. If its not there is something going on.

4) gap geometry. This actually impacts the response and the ping of the attack and the octave intonation more that it does the slotting, but if the gap is really small the horn will feel looser. Not as much as a moderately worn piston though. Gap that is big like .185 or bigger makes it more secure but i dont think its the slotting as much as the response.
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