Trumpet Valve Comparison Info/Weight/Force Measurements

[Ronnman]

I decided to measure some of my trumpets’ valve components and spring pressures for comparison to the valves’ feel. I was surprised that the LeBlanc valves were much heavier having such a great valve action. Below is the data I measured. Note, I did not remove and weigh the valve stem of the LeBlanc. I believe it will be slightly heavier than the Martin since they are both made from brass and the threaded diameter where it attaches to the piston is larger.

Leblanc Al Hirt Model (mid 60s) complete valve with button weight 52.8 grams
Force to compress valves to half stroke 1-160g, 2-166g, 3-159g
Springs origin unknown.
This trumpet has the fastest valve action of the 3, valve clearance is loose and using Hetman #3 oil.

Martin Committee (1954) complete valve with button weight 50.3 grams.
Force to compress valves to half stroke 1-235g, 2-220g, 3-225g
Springs are Benge.
Brass valve stem without button weigh 5.2 grams.
This trumpet has the second fastest valve action of the 3, valve clearance is tight and using La Tromba T1 oil.

Selmer Signet (1969) Model complete valve with button weight 43.5 grams
Force to compress valves to half stroke 1-158g, 2-162g, 3-158g
Aluminum valve stem without button weight 2.2 grams
I am fairly certain these are Bach valves.
This trumpet has the slowest valve action of the 3, valve clearance is tight and using Fat cat oil.

None of these trumpets’ valves I consider too difficult to play for an extended period of time.

My conclusion is that it takes components that compliment each other to have fast smooth valve action. I continue to try various springs and oils on the Martin and Signet trumpets to achieve better valve action.

I invite anyone’s findings and comments.
Ron

[Ronnman]

Correction, the oil used on the Committee is La Tromba T1, and not T2.
Ron

[Ed Kennedy]

Those old LeBlancs and Selmers had great valves. They did something that was the same as the old Bessons. After the valve clusters were made sleeves which had not been annealed were inserted into the cylinders. This provided a harder bearing surface and contributed to fine valve action.

[Ronnman]

Thanks for the insight. There must be something to it. My Leblanc’s valves are smooth as a butter. Working to get my other trumpets close to them.
Ron

[Beyond16]

Of horns I have been playing recently, an 1939 Olds Special cornet has the best valves. A 1964 Selmer 24-B K-Modified Lightweight comes in second. I have more horns to try.

As a beginner I play lots of scales. C major low octave is easy and in muscle memory enough to play several times in one breath. This makes a good valve test. Some other Olds I have eventually get valve hesitation during this exercise. But the two horns mentioned never ever get valve hesitation.

Today I measured the force needed to press a valve a little, and all the way. I did this by balancing weights on the buttons, and then weighing the needed combination of weights. I used a 100g calibration weight plus some large dollar coins followed by smaller coins.

The 1939 Olds is impressive. The finger force needed to fully close a valve is 123g. The initial force to get the valve moving is 51g.

The Selmer needs 208g of finger force to close a valve. 68g is needed to get the valve moving.

The Selmer is annoying in that the valve has much more spring pressure at the end of the stroke than at the beginning. The Olds has more uniform force. Not so surprising considering the jumbo Olds spring occupies a lot more space than the dinky Selmer spring.

The Selmer valves do beat the Olds in the area of valve weight. The moving part of the Olds valve weighs nearly 52g while the Selmer comes in at 43.5. The combination of light spring pressure and heavy weight valve can make the Olds valve bounce slightly when released quickly. To reduce this tendency I have replaced the felt cushions with sponge silicone.

[Ronnman]

Beyond16 - Thanks for the input. That Olds is amazing at how little force is needed to actuate the valves. My Leblanc has those larger diameter springs and feels more consistent throughout the valve stroke.

That's a good idea about adding the weights (coins...etc.) to get the start and fully depressed valve forces. I will have to test my horns again using this method and report back. I believe it will be a more definitive number using your method.

I have been tweaking my Committee's valves to get faster/better valve action by trying various springs and valve oil. I will see if there is any improvement in the force since there is a better feel to them.
Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014

[connicalman]

Dad was an alignment and suspension specialist. Vehicle weight and coil (or leaf) springs provide a pretty good analogy to pistons and springs. The feel of the top and bottom pads under our finger aren't something that you really want to experience on the road Not the bumpy ride nor the seasick bounce there or with 3 or 4 fingers.

I'm continually amazed by the valve action in old Olds's. They are so consistent between models, across the years, and from top to bottom of the downstroke & return.

I say this as a lover of the sound of Conns, yet the engineering - or trial and error - of spring strength & just enough 'give', piston assembly weight, and the responsiveness that can be fine-tuned with choice of oil on the Olds is hard to match. Bach and Getzens do great, too, but I'm looking at the WWII era US brass.
_________________
kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...

[Ronnman]

Beyond16 - using your method, below are my findings on 3 of my horns:

Selmer Signet - Start valve movement 33.6 grams* - Bottom out valve 173.5 grams*

Leblanc Al Hirt - Start valve movement 39.7 grams* - Bottom out valve 146.2 grams*

Committee - Start valve movement 48.4 grams* - Bottom out valve 198.5 grams*

I believe the Leblanc’s larger diameter spring wrapping outside the the valve’s upper extension contributes the smallest force difference from start to finish.

The 3 different horns haves springs with the same wire (gauge) size at .022”.

*all measurements made with an electronic digital scale

Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014

[yourbrass]

Short spring barrels, such as Martin, Selmer Paris, and Benge, use a spring that's shorter and of lighter weight than Bach or Yamaha. I use Holton springs w/really good results, as they are the only currently produced spring that fills the bill.
My 2p,
-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[Ronnman]

yourbrass - thanks for your insight on the springs.
Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014