• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Tense/Stiff Lips


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
chapahi
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 1467
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_usxGOZGUGM

Over the years I been striving for a perfectly clean attack, focused sound, and no air in the tone and periodically get tense, stiff chops and intonation troubles. I stumbled on this tutorial and tried deliberately playing with a lot of air in the tone and the unexpected result is a more relaxed embouchure. Learning to play with the airy sound, for me, didn't preclude having the pure tone and attack when I want it. In fact, it helps me achieve that.
_________________
Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scarface
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1806

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An idea along the lines of soft playing: If you do long tones, try starting them with a breath attack and play the longest tones possible. Keep them going well past the point you normally would for a musical phrase. Bend them slightly to find the center. It’s relaxing, and should help your lips respond more like a clarinet reed eventually, with that al niente thing they do. It will also encourage a full breath because you should be empty at the end.

Credit where due: Heard this idea most recently from Dale Clevenger on YouTube, but also from several great trumpet teachers over the years, so it must be a thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 900
Location: Bay Area, California

PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chapahi wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_usxGOZGUGM

Over the years I been striving for a perfectly clean attack, focused sound, and no air in the tone and periodically get tense, stiff chops and intonation troubles. I stumbled on this tutorial and tried deliberately playing with a lot of air in the tone and the unexpected result is a more relaxed embouchure. Learning to play with the airy sound, for me, didn't preclude having the pure tone and attack when I want it. In fact, it helps me achieve that.
That's interesting. Thanks for sharing. I've run into problems when I've used an airy sound in the past, but I might try revisiting it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1780

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:

Quote:
Sorry for disturbing the peace.


Do not appologize. You are RIGHT ON in your comments and suggestions above!

The original poster would do well to accept them.


I'm on the air-train with this post. Tense delivery of air gives sensation of tense lips and tense lips can cause tense delivery of air.

To the OP, i would pare back your practice to simple scales and arpeggios focusing on a solid flow of air while focusing on a great sound.

I echo Don's response on this
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrpPro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1471
Location: Riverview, FL

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Someone who only points out what is wrong is not teaching. You are the student. Find someone to teach you.

Amen, to this!

A teacher doesn't need to point out fraks, gaks, out of tuneness and all other things unmusical. Keep it positive and give the student the practice tools that will fix the problems. If the teacher doesn't know how to do this then they should stop pretending to be a teacher.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is ONE quality that the air that you supply has. That is pressure. And that controls the dynamics. Air has no such quality as "tension". But being tense in the abdomen or exhalation apparatus will reduce the air pressure while using excessive effort.

Perfect air (whatever that means) will not correct a poor sound. Embouchure function is the issue. THAT is what determines the tone quality, then the appropriate air pressure is provided for the dynamic level.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1780

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
There is ONE quality that the air that you supply has. That is pressure. And that controls the dynamics. Air has no such quality as "tension". But being tense in the abdomen or exhalation apparatus will reduce the air pressure while using excessive effort.

Perfect air (whatever that means) will not correct a poor sound. Embouchure function is the issue. THAT is what determines the tone quality, then the appropriate air pressure is provided for the dynamic level.


1. Yes, I agree. If you read my post, I said "tense delivery" not "tense air."

2. Great embouchure and crap air delivery will also not produce a great tone. So I'll disagree with you there. You can have a perfectly made stradivarius violin, but if you don't know how to pull the bow, you won't get a great sound.

3.Trumpet playing is more than just a collection of true statements. Truth helps us get there but there is a bit of "art" to teaching.

Edited to pare down #2 and added #3


Last edited by abontrumpet on Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:38 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too little air pressure will produce too soft sound. The air has ONE quality.. that is pressure.

"More air" will make a louder sound. Whether its good or bad will depend on the embouchure function.

I find that using less air effort helps to improve embouchure functionality. Soft Clarke studies do not require much air pressure.

So is the light air for soft tone "crap" air?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cause and effect
What is actually happening isn't necessarily what it feels like.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1780

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
There is ONE quality that the air that you supply has. That is pressure. And that controls the dynamics. Air has no such quality as "tension". But being tense in the abdomen or exhalation apparatus will reduce the air pressure while using excessive effort.

Perfect air (whatever that means) will not correct a poor sound. Embouchure function is the issue. THAT is what determines the tone quality, then the appropriate air pressure is provided for the dynamic level.


While I understand your point of view, I wanted to let you know that in today's instagram/FB post by Tom Hooten he wrote:

"...Really just trial and error. As long as I have 1) good air in 2) good air out) and 3 not too much pressure I really can't get messed up."

You should let him know there's no such thing as good air.

Yes, I am aware this is snarky, but it goes to my point that there is more to trumpet teaching and performance than science. It is part science and part art.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
... in today's instagram/FB post by Tom Hooten he wrote:

"...Really just trial and error. As long as I have 1) good air in 2) good air out) and 3 not too much pressure I really can't get messed up." ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think those points are intended to be helpful?
How do you interpret and implement those points for improvement?

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what is exactly "good" about "good air"?

And what is bad about "bad" air?

There are, IMO 2 things that can be wrong. That is 1. the wrong air pressure, yielding the wrong dynamic, and 2. In regard to the inhalation, insufficient air volume to sustain the flow for a given continuous note or phrase.

(By "air volume" I do mean volume, not flow)

If those conditions are met there is NOTHING else that the air can do to influence the quality of tone.

Tone quality depends on embouchure function.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Irving
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1887

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the air volume is sufficient for the music that you need to play, then you will incurr less of a workload on the embouchure. We tend to get in our own way when trying to blow by using excess tension, which can happen when the inspiratory muscles fight the expiratory muscles, resulting in isometric contraction, but little air being moved. The hospital breathing machines that contain a ball shows you what happens when you are blowing air volume (the ball moves). You can't base moving air on abdominal tightness. So good air would be unimpeded air, and bad air would be trying to move air when your muscles won't allow it to be moved.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are correct that abdomen tension will reduce air pressure of the exhalation. This is inefficient breathing for sure. But this will yield a softer tone or no tone not a bad tone. A bad tone requires a bad embouchure function.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Irving
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1887

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't need an excess of abdominal tension to yield a softer tone. The more excess tension, the more it will come out in the sound. I'm not saying you don't need abdominal muscle support. What you don't need is excess tension.

The air and the embouchure work together to produce a tone. It isn't an either/or situation. One without the other, and no sound will come out. You can have excess tension in the embouchure as well which could stop sound production. One thing that is true today in pedagogy is that more attention is given to the air than to the embouchure, probably because of teachers like Jacaobs and Adam that based their teaching on efficient breathing. I never met Mr. Adam, but I did have a few lessons with Jacobs. With all of his knowledge about breathing, I don't think that he understood much about the embouchure, and preferred not to mess with it at all. He believed that everything could be fixed through breathing, which I personally don't agree with. AFAIK the last well known teacher that did work with the embouchure was Reinhardt, and he passed more than 30 years ago.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
... One thing that is true today in pedagogy is that more attention is given to the air than to the embouchure, ...

-------------------------------------------------------
If that is true, it's likely because some instructors don't have the ability (or maybe the desire) to detect embouchure problems, or perhaps don't know how to actually 'teach' the technique that would benefit an individual student.

note: I recently did some reading about Adam's and Caruso's methods, and apparently they both were concerned about problems with the physical aspect of embouchure - as those problems would manifest into 'sound and playing' difficulties that needed correction. Their teaching methods (process) might not have addressed the embouchure directly (as in 'do this' or 'do not do that'), but they somehow attempted to have the students change their sound in a way to make the needed embouchure changes.

Trumpet playing has a large component of physical skill, and it's a shame if teachers are not making sure that the basic techniques and skills are established early-on. And worse if the teachers avoid addressing 'skill / technique' problems that impede students who are trying to improve.

And YES, I agree that 'air' is critical. But is it really that complicated? If a player runs-out of air it's pretty obvious that they need to inhale a larger quantity, or regulate the out-flow better. If they can't generate enough air pressure to activate an embouchure that is not 'closing down', then they need to 'blow harder'.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abdomen tesion is never required. And efficiency of breathing is not the same as efficiency of tone.

Air does not REPLACE embouchure function. It supplies the power for sound. Efficiency of tone is by the embouchure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9028
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
99% of all trumpet playing problems are a result of problems in the delivery of the air.


Didn't Arnold Jacobs say something like that?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3306
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
99% of all trumpet playing problems are a result of problems in the delivery of the air.

----------------------------------
True if the 'delivery point' is INSIDE the mouthpiece. Not so obvious for delivery in the mouth behind the lips.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Tense/Stiff Lips Reply with quote

LogsTrumpet wrote:
Hey all,

I’m a first year masters student and lately I have been running into a few issues with my playing that are new to me as of this school year. I am finding that I have been regularly succumbing to a poor balance between lip tension and air, and I find that I default to using too much ‘chops’ making my high register sound forced and thin, as well as my starting pitches slightly up and out of center. I believe this may be due in part to a heavy load I took during my undergrad. By my third year I was playing lead as well as solo chair in Jazz ensemble and principal in both the wind symphony and philharmonic. Additionally, I had a full time position in a symphony orchestra outside of school. I think the strenuous load of playing may have developed overuse and tension that has grown incrementally overtime. Any advice on how to start reversing these effects?


You have to train your lips to respond. It's an issue of muscle memory for all the muscles involved in the embouchure. One problem is that the training program is never ending so a well trained, very effective and very efficient embouchure can change into a problematic embouchure through the process of changing circumstances. New habits develop which create the issues you've described. Your embouchure needs a refresher course.

In my view very soft playing is one of the best ways to train your embouchure to respond easily and efficiently. If I were you I'd be focusing on soft playing, trying to decrease the amount of air necessary to get the lips to vibrate and produce a pure tone in all ranges of the instrument. That exercise should be made an important part of your daily practice.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group