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Tips on doubling cornet with trumpet



 
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Nathanamiranda
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:03 pm    Post subject: Tips on doubling cornet with trumpet Reply with quote

I used to be a pretty big Bb Cornet player in classical/BBB style, playing trumpet somewhat frequently on the side, now I almost exclusively play trumpet for work and cornet is more of a side horn I play when I’ve got time. Before I never really had trouble switching between the two, but now I can really only play trumpet first then easily switch to cornet, not vice versa. Playing cornet first then trumpet causes me to have to take a days break or so in between for me to play trumpet without feeling like it’s the first ever time I’ve picked up the horn. Maybe it’s the different MPs? I play a Bach 3C on trumpet and a Yamaha 11E4 or Wick 2 on cornet. I have decent trumpet chops, but I tire quickly. However, I have great cornet chops and can keep on even if I feel tired from trumpet. Seeking some advice from some more experienced players, thanks in advance!
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two Thoughts:
1. I've often heard for doubling it can be good to play both daily (ex: trumpet and piccolo, flugelhorn and trumpet).
2. Mouthpieces are cheap. Is there anything stopping you from trying a Wick 2b on trumpet or a Bach 3b on cornet?
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Bb Bob
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, playing the same rim helps. I play a Curry 10.5 BBC on cornet and a 10.5 BC on trumpet. Might be worth a try. The Curry 3 BBC looks like it’s accepted by the BBC community from what I’ve seen.
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Nathanamiranda
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bb Bob"]For me, playing the same rim helps. I play a Curry 10.5 BBC on cornet and a 10.5 BC on trumpet. Might be worth a try. The Curry 3 BBC looks like it’s accepted by the BBC community from what I’ve seen.[/quote]

I'll try that, always heard a lot of good about Curry MPs. Now here's my excuse to give it a shot!
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have too much lip intrusion. The deep cornet cup pulls your lips into the mouthpiece, and then you can play all day that way, because the cup is so deep that it works even if your lips are way way out. Then trying to play trumpet is almost impossible because your lips are almost hitting the bottom of the 3c. Making a de-facto super shallow cup, which sucks. Imgaurantee you this is happening. To see for yourself do this:
Put your 3c in the fridge for a half hour. During that half hour play your cornet mouthpiece and revel in how great it works when you are tired. Then play a loud G on top of the staff forn10 seconds. Look at the inside of the 3c cup. Your breath will have made little droplets of water and those droplets have been wide away where you lips touches the inside of the cup. You will see then see where your lip touches. It might be that it almost goes down to the very bottom of the cup. An eye opener
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: Tips on doubling cornet with trumpet Reply with quote

Nathanamiranda wrote:
I used to be a pretty big Bb Cornet player in classical/BBB style, playing trumpet somewhat frequently on the side, now I almost exclusively play trumpet for work and cornet is more of a side horn I play when I’ve got time. Before I never really had trouble switching between the two, but now I can really only play trumpet first then easily switch to cornet, not vice versa. Playing cornet first then trumpet causes me to have to take a days break or so in between for me to play trumpet without feeling like it’s the first ever time I’ve picked up the horn. Maybe it’s the different MPs? I play a Bach 3C on trumpet and a Yamaha 11E4 or Wick 2 on cornet. I have decent trumpet chops, but I tire quickly. However, I have great cornet chops and can keep on even if I feel tired from trumpet. Seeking some advice from some more experienced players, thanks in advance!


Could be me! Front row cornetist half a century - quite successful (on the amateur level). Now and then trumpet (lead most of the time) - up til some years ago when I began playing lead more often, today very often.
I have a very good endurance, were I to play only trumpet (like 26 songs in a row on a dance gig), or only cornet (like two heavy concerts 2 hours apart. Yes I practice a lot (2-3 hours a day). But combining...
Had a successful big band concert, during the week practicing trumpet only - bigband rehearsal wednesday, brass band thursday, brought, as a last resort, having tried, well you name it, the same mouthpiece (cornet model) to the brassband rehearsal (Schilke 14B) - did my very best to play like the old school bright cornets of the 50ties 60ties - thus escaping our trumpet sound allergic conductor´s evil ´eye. Not entirely though...
My main problem is that my lips seem to swell - particularly if I have to play a lot of tones below C in the staff - not so much if I play above.
I can agree that lip intrusion is one important variable. Another is the very different resistance characteristics of the two horns - I used to play the soprano in younger days, never ever this was a problem. Another variable is the mouthpiece - not easy to combine. I prefer a Wick Ultra 1,5 but find that this is too diverse - so my compromise has become a Schilke 14 D3D (custom made) - not ideal - I´ve made a deal with the conductor..
But same problem seems to prevail - so now I´m going to test a Schilke 14 for lead....
I´ve talked to pros and they can recognize this problem - i.e. going from a big band trombone to a heavy bass trombone is challenging! Same mouthpiece sort of helps but the difference in resistance.....I think that the rim should be the same - helps me.
However as lipshurt says (and I´ve got the same advice from JVL) - it might be that the most important variable concerns the very setting of the chops. Keeping the mouth-area firm, no leaking corners, etc etc.
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Getzen 300 series
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Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
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King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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JVL
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
i agree with keeping the same rim, lip protrusion indeed, and Seymour about resistance. I practice exercices (flex etc), varying the dynamics, so, my resistance feeling, from ppp (just above the whisper) to where the horn resist, and of course at various velocities, and staccato, legato.
This help me not to be disturbed when switching from trumpet to cornet or flug or picc.
best
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kanstul mouthpiece comparator still exists. You can use it to explore "lipshurt"'s comments. Pop up the 3c vs the Wick 2

Consider trying out a few trumpet mouthpieces that slope down more directly from the rim bite.(The 3C sort of slopes inwards.) They might give you more room for your lips when they swell yet give you an acceptable "trumpet" sound.

Bach 2 3/4C, 2 1/2 C, Yamaha 16C4. On the slightly smaller size - Bach 6,6B.

One other observation - when your get your mouthpiece sorted - you might want to try to match the resistance between your trumpet and trumpet mouthpiece combination and your cornet and cornet mouthpiece combination.
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I practice cornet every day and can switch to trumpet whenever I need to. I am playing similar rims though and don't have a lot of lip intrusion.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
I practice cornet every day and can switch to trumpet whenever I need to. I am playing similar rims though and don't have a lot of lip intrusion.


Gordon! I do envy you! Perhaps my situation is a bit extreme - front row in brassband and lead in a big band??? Nil pauses in the brassband; in the "modern" big band several pauses but instead regurlarly high register most of the time (above G on staff); in the "swingband" very few pauses - i.e last night we rehearsed "Stampede" ....(https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=stampede+henderson) of course in a far lower tempo but....where to inhale???
If I were, as stated above, only to play cornet - no problems- same thing with trumpet.
Lipintrusion - I can buy that and I try not to! New teacher assists me - singing - even flow - playing even flow. The correct combination of aperture/tongue....oh my...
How do you manage??? What´s your setting?
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play the trumpet like a french horn. On the red of my lips. I have a big overbite and i have thick lips but this works for me. All I can say is I have learned to live with it.

If I play the trumpet all the time I struggle to be able to play the cornet properly. I am playing on broadly similar mouthpieces with large inside diameters and big throats.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Besson Prestige
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and Horntrader 3 rims

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
I play the trumpet like a french horn. On the red of my lips. I have a big overbite and i have thick lips but this works for me. All I can say is I have learned to live with it.

If I play the trumpet all the time I struggle to be able to play the cornet properly. I am playing on broadly similar mouthpieces with large inside diameters and big throats.



Thanks for responding! My lips could be described as average, not thick not thin. Teeth well aligned so no under/overbite. Not sure of what counts as large inside diameters, mine are 17.02 mm. D cup for cornet and B cup for trumpet lead (concertband probably C or D cup, I have both). Backbores probably average. Standard Schilke.

But - you play the trumpet like a french horn (no hand in bell I suppose .. ) - meaning you really pucker your lips? Ensuring bottom lip not sneaking in under top lip? That´s what I try to avoid.
Just for testing I´ve begun playing on my "spare" horn, the Yamaha 2330 II, clearly inferior to the Custom, but with less resistance.....Not ideal but..
Furthermore I´ll bring this horn to bigband rehearsal tomorrow night.
Day after, thursday night, we´ll be just two chaps up front row...
(he 78 Me 77 ) so hopefully my chops will be OK. We´ll find out.
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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adc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my limited experience I would use the same #MP on both. I play an Yamaha 11C4 on my cornets. I tried an 11E4 (deeper cup) I did not like it.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use the same rims but different cup depths on all of my horns (trumpet, cornet, flugel, piccolo). I've found practicing cornet and trumpet together is a little challenging, but I try to rotate each day through all of my horns and mouthpieces, spending at least a few minutes on each, even in my warm-up.

I'm finding it's similar to when I was doubling on trombone many years ago--I practiced enough on both horns that eventually I could make the switch back and forth very easily--sometimes even on the same tune.

It's really just a matter of switching my concept of sound between the horns and trying to focus on how I use my air. The less I worry about chops the less traumatic the switching is.
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