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Audun Jemtland New Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2016 Posts: 7 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:57 pm Post subject: Satchmo's Syndrome |
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How is your trumpet "health"? My father of 75years of age just 'blew' his lip to a rupture. Do you have rupture? Have had? How did you develop a healthy embouchure and not rupture your lips? How can it be prevented? How can it be reverted back?
"-Sad stuff!
Told you on the phone that I had been to the MD for my upper lip. Now it turns out that there may be "brist" (rupture) in the ring muscle around the mouth. It is also called Satchmo's syndrome (after Louis Armstrong who had it in the 1930s). But the stupid thing is that I can't play for maybe several months, and possibly can't reach the level I've had.
That's how it is when you get older and the muscles around your body become less supple and elastic.
Only consolation is that I can boast about having the same as Louis Armstrong had!
Dad"
Thanks for any and every insight you might have. |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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You might want to contact Rich Willey, the Donald S. Reinhardtmoderator. He had some problems and switched to bass trumpet for a long while. As a Rinehart devote he knows a lot about embouchure. |
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Audun Jemtland New Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2016 Posts: 7 Location: Norway
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Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Ed Kennedy wrote: | You might want to contact Rich Willey, the Donald S. Reinhardtmoderator. He had some problems and switched to bass trumpet for a long while. As a Rinehart devote he knows a lot about embouchure. |
Thank you so much! |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1474 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Satchmo's Syndrome |
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Audun Jemtland wrote: | How is your trumpet "health"? My father of 75years of age just 'blew' his lip to a rupture. Do you have rupture? Have had? How did you develop a healthy embouchure and not rupture your lips? How can it be prevented? How can it be reverted back?
"-Sad stuff!
Told you on the phone that I had been to the MD for my upper lip. Now it turns out that there may be "brist" (rupture) in the ring muscle around the mouth. It is also called Satchmo's syndrome (after Louis Armstrong who had it in the 1930s). But the stupid thing is that I can't play for maybe several months, and possibly can't reach the level I've had.
That's how it is when you get older and the muscles around your body become less supple and elastic.
Only consolation is that I can boast about having the same as Louis Armstrong had!
Dad"
Thanks for any and every insight you might have. |
And again I would like to advocate the BE method. I was 72 when my chops crash landed - overuse syndrom due to a multitude of factors finally catching me up after a musical (amateur) life with many successes. One significant factor was faulty breathing - with the help of a pro I came back on the track taking the first lessons ever. But what really made me able to regain my abilities, including playing lead again, was the BE method. The ingenious Roll Ins and Roll Outs and the other practices turned out to provide a safe embouchure, concentrating /focussing the aperture.
These practices has given me a very good endurance (like dance gigs 27 songs in a row) and the ability to play lead-trumpet again plus keeping up front row cornet. On an amateur level. Also I´ve gained a better understanding of the state of my chops, when to take five or 60 minutes off practicing etc. The BE method, applied correctly, really strengthens ones chops - I´m still surprised 4-5 years after the start.
Also - might be beneficial to read https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3184089 and www.embouchures.com maybe also www.wilktone.com › !
Mrs Lewis was very helpful when I got desperate facing my break down.
So don´t give up - go for it! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Satchmo's Syndrome |
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Audun Jemtland wrote: | How is your trumpet "health"? My father of 75years of age just 'blew' his lip to a rupture. Do you have rupture? Have had? How did you develop a healthy embouchure and not rupture your lips? How can it be prevented? How can it be reverted back?
"-Sad stuff!
Told you on the phone that I had been to the MD for my upper lip. Now it turns out that there may be "brist" (rupture) in the ring muscle around the mouth. It is also called Satchmo's syndrome (after Louis Armstrong who had it in the 1930s). But the stupid thing is that I can't play for maybe several months, and possibly can't reach the level I've had.
That's how it is when you get older and the muscles around your body become less supple and elastic.
Only consolation is that I can boast about having the same as Louis Armstrong had!
Dad"
Thanks for any and every insight you might have. |
Hi Audun,
I'm sorry for your father's injury. If his orbicularis oris muscle is actually torn completely, the torn part will have retracted and he will have a noticeable lump of bunched up muscle under one side of his lip. If this is the case, he will need surgery to correct it. But after surgery he will be able to redevelop his playing ability.
If he does not have a noticeable lump then the muscle is only partially torn. In this case, he should put away his trumpet for several months and allow time for the muscle to heal. Then, he should return to playing in a very conservative manner (no loud or high notes at first).
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
Graduate Nurse (I graduated in December!)
Trumpet Player and Teacher
Personal Valet to a Malamute (people with Malamutes will understand)
https://i.postimg.cc/R0G2bFdQ/IMG-6788.jpg _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Satchmo had a fantastic but dry embouchure. So does Jon Faddis. Or at least he did. I'm not sure if he still plays dry or not.
Roy Roman, a disciple of Roy Stevens used to blow dry right after he switched to the Stevens system. A method I'll get to in a minute. However after a year or so he (Roman) converted to playing wet. Because in hot weather it's almost impossible to maintain dry chops. You should listen to Roman!! OMG?!!!
Remember Satchmo's famous white handkerchief? Now you know why he always had it in hand. I find myself desiring a kerchief during my recent switch to the Stevens system. God I LOVE that method!
If you watch Maynard play "Ole" on that TV show video you can see him dry his lips before playing too. "Mr Hollywood" aka Chris Labarbara has printed out the list of dry lip players but this is on a very old post somewhere.
With a well coordinated dry lip setting the most unbelievable lip trills or shakes are made easy. So are high notes. The dry corners of the lips where they intersect the rim inner edge provide a phenomenal grip. Allowing the "meat" of the upper lip the total freedom to vibrate. It's my theory that Satchmo used this condition to get his effortless tone. His playing reminds me of a butterfly.
Esp in a forward jaw setting. The one Reinhardt labelled "type IVA".
Unfortunately the dry lips are easily cut by the mouthpiece.
Suggestion: Study the "palm method" as per Roy Stevens.Roy could blow Triple Cs with just the horn valve casing resting on his palm. No fingers! No excessive pressure either.
I'm told that Faddis prescribes a "Witch Hazel" rub after he plays but I got that second hand.
Wet lip settings do not tend to develop the abrasions found on dry lip settings. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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I've theorized that Louis' issues had to do with years of hammering on chops that weren't well-suited to the instrument in the first place with abusive "do whatever you gotta do to get through the gig" technique. If you watch him set up he kind of thins out his lips to set the mouthpiece and his lips always looked pretty chewed up. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Rich Willey is a good suggestion.
I would also just suggest doing what Rich did for rehab initially: switch to a large brass instrument for a while. Flugabone/Marching Trombone/Bass trombone is a great choice for rehab. It doesn't go directly on the lips.
To me, piccolo trumpet feels four times as hard as regular trumpet on my chops and flugabone feels four times easier. Rather than rushing to get back on trumpet take a break and do something else. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: |
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I burst a blood vessel in my lip once a few years ago on a gig. I had little purplish dots and a swollen lip the next day. It was from playing too loud without a microphone with a loud band and pressing hard. I stopped playing for a while and let it heal (maybe 2 weeks) and then it was fine. I haven't had any problems since then, I didn't tear anything. If the lip is swollen and has those blood vessel dots like I described, just lay off for a while until the lip has returned to normal. However, years later I ended up with a cold sore on the exact same area, twice. And I had never had cold sores before. I think it may have had something to do with the damage to my skin there.
As for an actualy tear of the muscle, I have no experience with that but others above gave some advice. |
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