Trad 2nd Trumpet

[jhatpro]

My 7-piece trad band includes a trumpet playing lead and me on trumpet or cornet playing second. The rest of the band includes clarinet, trombone, guitar, bass and drums. We all solo, of course, usually splitting 34 bars and sometimes even 24 bars.

I try to play counter-melodies under the %lead trumpet in such a way that I don’t conflict with him. For example, I try to play half note 3rds and 7ths when they aren’t part of the melody.

I also try to play fills as if the lead trumpet is a vocalist.

Often this works well but sometimes I feel I’m cluttering things up.

If you play trad/Dixie with similar instrumentation, how do you approach the subject I’ve described?
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[kehaulani]

It's actually a little crowded a place to be. Listen to King Oliver's Hot Fives and Hot Sevens with Louis Armstrong playing second. Lot's of ideas on playing the second trumpet part in a trad. band.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[delano]

34 bars?
King Olivers Hot Fives and Sevens?
Trad turned mad.

[jhatpro]

Any transcriptions available that show how Oliver and Armstrong meshed?
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[kehaulani]

Not to be glib, but to the best of my knowledge, there are no transcription books. You have to go to YouTube and just use your ears.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[jhatpro]

Actually, I found a transcription by Guy Bergeron of “Doctor Jazz” with Oliver playing lead and Armstrong playing 2nd cornet. It shows Armstrong playing under Oliver a lot, sometimes laying out.

You’re right that listening to (and playing along with) the Hot Seven is the best way to internalize what’s going on. But it’s also helpful to see it in print when possible.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[jazz_trpt]

I find that the act of writing the tunes out from the recordings (or starting with a basic source chart and then dialing it into the source recording "arrangement") really helps me to wrap my head around each tune. Not so much for a second cornet part (except when it's a specific harmony part) but more for the general lay of the land. It also gives you a sense about where you may be able to hand the lead part off back and forth so the other player gets a breather.
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[bunny]

The Hot Fives and Sevens are a series of recordings made by Louis Armstrong as leader for the Okeh company.
King Oliver's Dixie Syncopaters recorded "Doctor Jazz" in 1927, long after the Creole Jazz Band days. Louis is, of course, not present on that recording.

[Oncewasaplayer]

Listening to Joe King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band recordings are the way to learn how to do this. You can find examples in The Simply Early Jazz website with transcriptions that you can bring to your band.

Start with Dippermouth Blues. Have two cornets play what's written with your rhythm section. Wow! It sounds amazing. Then add the bone and clarinet. (A plus is a chance to play Oliver's famous blues solo.) Then try Snake Rag. Bam! You'll soon see why Oliver was a master and how that two trumpet sound, especially the carefully constructed duet breaks was blowing everyone's mind at the time (and still today).

The San Francisco revival bands also try to recreate this two-trumpet approach on recordings and are easier to hear due to the improved recording techniques.

https://www.simplyearlyjazz.com/store/c11/King_Oliver_%28Dixieland%29.html
_________________
Getzen 800DLX cornet
Selmer Sigma trumpet

[jhatpro]

Thanks, all, for your insights. Listening to Oliver and Armstrong and transcribing certainly is the best way to go and eventually it's bound to help.

In the meantime, the clock is running and I've got to deal with challenge of playing the gigs on our calendar and playing them as well as we can with what we know and can do now.

Trad is supposed to be polyphonic but not chaotic. We're going to try a good suggestion I received from Jeff Helgesen: have the trumpet alternate playing sections instead of expecting the second trumpet to be capable of creating tuneful counter melodies that don't step all over everybody.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[adam.arredondo]

My thinking on playing with four horns in general is that there are two basic approaches: (1) four independent parts (2) 3 or fewer independent parts, with 2 or more horns in homophony.

Four independent parts
If you're going to have four independent parts, it becomes very important to make sure that each horn part has 'sonic space' so that the texture doesn't get cluttered. Of course you'll want to be mindful of cluttering the texture all the time, but it's harder to do with a large front line. The key techniques here are:

1. Play mostly chord tones
2. Move at different paces (e. g. trombone mostly in half notes, clarinet in eigth notes)
3. Stick to contrasting registers
4. Play sparsely (especially whoever is carrying the melody)

Playing mostly chord tones will help keep the horns keep from clashing harmonically. Moving at different paces will help the listener be able to hear each horn's independent line. Sticking to contrasting registers and playing sparsely will both help to avoid harmonic clashing and promote independence of lines. Best of all, using these techniques will help you play from your mind's ear, react to the rest of the ensemble, and make better music.

Two or more horns in homophony
Another way to keep the texture clean is for two or more horns to pair up rhythmically. The 2nd trumpet harmonizing the melody is one way to achieve homophony. Another is for the clarinet and trombone to play rhythmic background figures together. You could also try having two horns play slow moving lines in a call and response fashion between each other (I think of this as a conversation within a conversation).

Hope this helps!
_________________
Adam Arredondo
New Orleans
www.adamarredondo.com

[jhatpro]

Thanks, Adam! Good ideas.

We are sounding better when I treat the lead trumpet like a vocalist by playing mostly soft chord tones but also embellishing the melody at phrase endings.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[kehaulani]

[jhatpro]

Then what would I do, sit and listen?
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[kehaulani]

_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Richard III]