BE with SC and TCE

[ETK]

From reading this forum I was lead to get a copy of Jeff's excellent BE book and have been using it for one month. (I am an excited comeback player for 2 months now thanks to this forum). From what I have read on this forum it seems that "Superchops" by Jerome Callet uses a similar embouchure. I recently received and read Mr. Callet's latest book "Trumpet Secrets."

Can the embouchure presented in TS be used and be compatible with BE?

[trumpetjunkie]

The roll-outs in BE are pretty much the same as Callet's. Other than that they're pretty diferent. I know several people who do BE are experimenting with Callet's tonguing on a BE embouchure... kinda interesting.
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[Dave Converse]

IMHO..............Not really. Because BE has roots in Jerome Callets older methodology, and shares some common ingredients, on the surface it looks like it would be compatible with SC or TCE. But sooner or later it seems that one has to choose one or the other. My take on BE is that, like Caruso, it isn't really an embouchure in itself, as much as a terrific technique to fine tune your embouchure (key word: "balanced"). TCE and SC are definately embouchures as such. Just my 2 cents.............and worth every penny!

[trumpetteacher1]

I don't recommend mixing the two in the beginning, as shoving the tongue forward creates a lot more complexity for the average player.

After mastering the BE exercises - and this may sound a bit sappy - you have to go where your heart tells you to go. I have a lot of respect for Jerry and what he has done. But I make no guarantees that everyone will be successful integrating the two systems.

Others on this board may want to chip in, as I know that some have experienced benefits from using both.

Jeff

[oj]

I fully agree with Jeff on this:

* Master BE, then try TCE.

I worked on BE more than a year before trying TCE. I know Bert also did that, so perhaphs he also could comment on it?

When I started on TCE it was first on tuba. The good thing with that is that you can feel the movements much easier than on a trumpet. Bigger movements, etc. I can also do spitbuzz and "move" that into a good sound on tuba.

Btw, I now use FLEXUS, Laurie Frink and John McNeils new excellent book. It is based on Caruso, with lot of new interesting exercises. Some of the flexibility exercises can (IMO) be seen as enhancements to the advanced lip slurs in BE.

But, remember:

Master BE, then try other additional things!

Ole

[HJ]

Two things happened,

-I visited a Callet clinic in Germany. Jerome had me and a few other trumpeters do nothing but spit-buzzing and talked about TCE a lot.
-I had, and still have some problems with tonguing on a rolled in position.

The combination of those two things made me try to tongue rolled in with a TCE setting. This worked and felt as a natural next step.

For me it is absolutely clear that it has to do with the order of things. BE comes first. This sets up the basic fundamentals. Without this it is risky to try TCE, SC or whatever. I won't say it cannot work, but it is much more hazardous. BE is IMO the safest way to DEVELOP an embouchure. An...embouchure, an efficient, balanced embouchure. Like Dave says it is not an embouchure on it self. If you have the basics, then you can go forward and try some things.
I had a very clear experience with the order in which to do things. I come from a much too open Farkas embouchure. I was taught the air-way. Blow, blow, blow. It just did not work properly. Well, to a certain extend , it did, because if I hadn't developed my breathing so much, I had been lost completely. But it was not efficient. Not until I was doing BE for a half year or so I felt that if I supported my air a bit more concious ( I hadn't paid any attention to it fro the moment I begun BE) it took me to the next level. So, with less effort on the air-side, it took me much further, because my lips where doing the right thing. That is the order of things. First lips, then the rest.

With TCE this is even more obvious. Had I tried this in my Farkas days it could have been disastrous. One of the things Jerome told me was to move my lips towards my tongue. Without BE I wouldn't have had a clue what he meant by that, or how to do that. Now it made sense.

For me TCE replaces the tongue-on lips. I use TCE as a means to an end. I do spitbuzzing for about 15 to 20 minutes a day on and off horn. I have no clue where this will lead me, what my chops will look like, or how my tongue will eventually function, but it feels good. My tongue gets a much clearer aiming point, my lips get even more direction and I feel more power on the attack (probably because my tongue is getting stronger).

I am a strong believer of the indirect way that Jeff and BE showed me. TCE can be a terrific tool, but I think that when you use it to form your chops, it can be dangerous, and you have to have a TCE teacher in the neighborhood to guide you. If you use it indirectly and look at it as a means to an end, and wait with this until the BE fundamentals are owned !!!!!!, it is indeed one of the steps you can take to further enhance your playing, just like Caruso or whatever.

Bert

[ This Message was edited by: HJ on 2004-03-02 09:39 ]

[ETK]

Thanks for the helpful replies so far. I am a 3 month comeback player (motivated by this forum and a nephew) after a many-year layoff. I have been regularly doing the BE exercises for 5 weeks now and sound almost like the CD through roll-in exercise #6. (I keep rereading Jeff's excellent book and discover new insights after more experience.)

Because Jeff spoke about Jerry Callet in a positive light I bought his book "Trumpet Secrets." It arrived 4 days ago and the last 4 days I have been doing the BE exercises with the tip of my tongue touching and never leaving the top inside of my lower lip while playing as per TS #1. My playing has stayed the same so far. I am wondering if I am getting off track and if I should go on to TS #2-#5 in Mr. Callet's book where the tongue touches the upper lip and both lips for higher notes.

[mcamilleri]

BE does not prescribe a particular tonguing style for general playing. Tongue-on-lips is used as an exercise, and may be the optimum tonguing style for some players. Personally, tongue-on-lips, or Callet SC style tonguing works best for me, as I can't get that Arban style Ta-Ta-Ta thing to work at all (and I've tried for over 20 years!). Others, no doubt, will be different.

You should stick to BE tongue-on-lips when doing the BE exercises involving tonguing, and perhaps try the SC/TS style in addition. If you don't do tongue-on-lips, you are skipping an integral part of BE, as it is WAY more than a simple tonguing exercise.

Trying to learn from two different methods at the same time when you are a newcomer to both of them is asking for trouble. I suggest you stick with BE for a while, at least until you have a REALLY good double pedal sound, and can play Roll-out #4 properly up to about high C. At that point you will have a well developed forward pucker, and the transition to TCE would be a lot easier.

Michael

[Lex Grantham]

Well...

I am one of those who started with SC (now TCE) at least 2 years before there was an awareness of BE. I have to agree that the forward tongue, etc. in SC/TCE can be a VERY concerning effort to achieve because it is so different from anything that many have done previously. Still, I persisted until the feeling of the tongue placement became more "second-nature" to me.

Then I grabbed my BE book from Jeff Smiley in the fall of 2001 and had my first lesson with him on February 9, 2002. Since then, I have attempted to do both the BE and SC/TCE efforts along the way, but recently, I have really concentrated on the BE roll-outs and tonguing on the lips more and more and actually suppressed a lot of the forward tongue action as found in SC/TCE. I think I have felt more relaxed in my overall playing as a result.

I suppose more time will tell.

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

[David]

My experience is a little different from the majority. I'm a comeback player after 20+ years. I started with BE, but wasn't successful with the roll in exercise - I struggled for two weeks and just couldn't get a sound. I had been reading about TCE, so one day I tried supporting my lower lip with my tongue during the roll in attempt - and it started to work!

I would suggest I am current using a combination method. I always have my tongue forward against my lower lip, but not to the extreme as described in TCE - more focused on center compression by the lips - primarily using the tongue for support.

I've recently started to have some very encouraging results. I may evolve to use my tongue more - I guess I'll see.
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[mcamilleri]

Glad to see I am not the only 'freak' that plays with my tongue through the teeth sometimes. I spent nearly 20 years thinking I was doing it all wrong, before I found out about SC and BE.

What I do find is that often when I play with the tongue touching the lips, it helps the lips to find a favourable position, and then once I withdraw the tongue, the lips KEEP that position. In time, hopefully the lips will learn to do it all for themselves.

Michael
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[ETK]

I just had to say David I identify with just about everything you said. Mike

[Charlie Cheeseburger]

I don't think that the two systems are ultimately compatible, except perhaps in the more limited sense indicated by Bert, who uses the TCE tonguing as an 'indirect' method to complement and enhance BE.

The extreme tongue position of TCE dictates a very specific embouchure, whereas BE is more of a developmental system, working with what a player already has to get things moving in the right direction.

Unless you are a very experienced player, I don't think you should try to combine the two systems, or it might do more harm than good. Whatever you do, proceed with caution.

Regards,

Andrew

[oj]

Mike (ETK),

Listen to Andrew - he is right about this!

I see that you post on the Callet Forum also. But, 5 weeks with BE is a very, very short time and then 7 days with TCE - no, you should listen to both Bert and Andrew. They play trumpet for a living. I, on the other hand only have it as a hobby. I also fool around with other brass. Most of what I have done with TCE is on tuba, and that is the most "forgiving" of my brass instruments. Trumpet is not at all so "kind"

Btw, I will take lessons from Jerome Callet next week (in Denmark).
Why?
Well, I feel that the Trumpet Secret book alone does not help me. I need personal guidance - I will bring my trumpet. If I get good results I will go on with TCE. But BE is still in my opinion the best (more general) development system. No need to fly to Texas for a lesson with Jeff. Practicing the "weird" RI & RO exercises, etc., reading this forum and re-reading the book is what is needed.

It is interesting to see that Clarke used the TCE method when he was playing with Sousa. He used it as a trick, or "stunt" (as he say). and he did not even call it an embouchure. See the post Herbert L. Clarke did TCE! in the Callet Forum, where his letter to Fred Elias is quoted.

Ole