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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:41 am Post subject: Practicing scales |
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Not to long ago I returned to practicing scales. There are 12 exercises per scale on one page per scale.
So I am wondering : What is more beneficial.
Practicing through 3 or 4 scales per session and let the brain be more exposed to the different scales.
OR
Just focus on one scale per session and do more repeats and let it burn more into your brain.
What is your take on this? _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:46 am Post subject: |
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For me, it was all keys at the same time
Music, even though it may be in a certain key, often modulates all over the place, so you're really not playing in just the original key, but many. Practicing all keys helps you to play these places in the music when the tonality strays into other keys. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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It depends on your ultimate objective. Are you just trying to become fluent in playing scales, is this just a flexibility exercise, is your objective to apply this skill to something (such as to jazz improvisation) or is there some other objective? _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think that practicing all keys is....well, KEY! That's how I recommend practicing the 'all keys' exercises in Arban. Practice the whole page.
One other thing on scale practice that I ran into recently (I guess I'm a comeback player...). Make sure and practice them in BOTH directions. I started doing this and was quite surprised that I was having little brain fart type problems when descending, specifically in my minor scales. I've been practicing these things for 50 years, so one wouldn't expect to run into these kind of stupid issues....but there it was.
keith |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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The purpose is to become more fluent in all scales, especially the once we don't see too often like 5 or 6 flats or sharps. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Ascending the scale seems easier. Make more mistakes what descending. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Dieter Z wrote: | The purpose is to become more fluent in all scales, especially the once we don't see too often like 5 or 6 flats or sharps. |
I played in disco/pop/soul bands. Can you say "F#" and "B", boys and girls? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Dieter Z wrote: | The purpose is to become more fluent in all scales, especially the once we don't see too often like 5 or 6 flats or sharps. |
I played in disco/pop/soul bands. Can you say "F#" and "B", boys and girls? |
Same with church work. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Some scales I can play up and down without even thinking or knowing which note I play.
On others I have to read most notes so play and on the more enshrined once I need to read almost every note.
Hope they start to flow much easier. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Dieter Z wrote: | Some scales I can play up and down without even thinking or knowing which note I play.
On others I have to read most notes so play and on the more enshrined once I need to read almost every note.
Hope they start to flow much easier. |
Everyone learns differently so I don't think there is a hard and fast rule to how to practice scales. For me, I'd segregate the types of scales (major, minor, etc.) and focus on all 12 of just one type in any one practice session.
What you're trying to do is create muscle memory so that the scales are automatic, that is, your focus is on the pitches rather than the names of the notes and you train your fingers and embouchure to produce those pitches automatically in sequence ascending and descending. It's not the same as "memorizing." This is an automatic thing learned through lots of repetition. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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I recommend playing all 12 major scales every day without looking at the page. Go slow and repeat as many times as you need. |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: |
I played in disco/pop/soul bands. Can you say "F#" and "B", boys and girls? |
and don't forget those trumpet solos on 'Johnny Be Good'! Always fun....
keith |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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As a beginner 6+ months in, scales are all I practice (except for occasional harmonic slurs). I really should be (re) learning to read music but I am not motivated enough at this point.
It is surprising to me how long it takes to get muscle memory to its maximum. Once muscle memory works at a certain speed, I need considerable practice for playing faster or slower. For me, learning ascending + descending seems like exactly twice the work of ascending only.
I am focusing on range building, so I play through two octaves instead of one as much as possible. I try to play 1-3 rounds of ascending two octaves then descending two octaves, in one breath without any break between octaves. My lungs aren't great, so 3 sets means playing quickly. That quick ability adds significantly to the muscle memory training for me.
I know only C major and F# major this way. I chose F# major to make 3 octaves an easier goal. At this point, I can play the 2 octave F# all day long. The 2 octave C scale is easy on a good day, after the right amount of warmup. I am starting to work on the third octave of F#. The last 2 or 3 notes are difficult.
My wife is teaching herself piano. The children must think it's strange she can read some music and play songs, while I have spent 6+ months playing 2 scales. |
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Eliot Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 123 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Practicing scales |
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Dieter Z wrote: | Not to long ago I returned to practicing scales. There are 12 exercises per scale on one page per scale.
So I am wondering : What is more beneficial.
Practicing through 3 or 4 scales per session and let the brain be more exposed to the different scales.
OR
Just focus on one scale per session and do more repeats and let it burn more into your brain.
What is your take on this? |
FWIW a couple of observations from personal experience.
1) I am attempting to get up to a graded level of Australian standard trumpet playing.
2) the graded level exams expect various scales to be performed from memory, sans music.
3) I had been practising all scales as in a "bracket" of music, but was having trouble with both F# and C# major and minor scales.
4) I took them out of the "bracket" of scales and repeated, repeated, repeated.
5) Eventually they are being written somewhere in the old grey matter or where ever automaticity forms. _________________ Eliot
Rank amateur, still upright and trying hard.
Yamaha YTR6335RC
B&S 150A Alto-Tenor Horn
Yamaha FZ8n (motorcycle)
Conn 83B (trumpet) |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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When I practice scales, I practice them in all keys.
Generally, I pick a mode (Dorian, 5th mode of Melodic Minor, half-whole diminished, etc.) and run them ascending and descending in all keys, with different articulations, gradually increasing the tempo until I'm maxed out. Then I do the same starting with descending.
I also always practice the associated arpeggios in the same way. E.g. if I'm running Mixolidian scales I'll run dominant seventh arpeggios, or if I'm running melodic minor scales I'll run minor-major-seventh arpeggios.
It's best to practice different chord movements as well: Circle of 4ths, chromatic ascending/descending, whole steps, minor thirds, major thirds are all super useful.
The above method is one I adapted from Coker's "Patterns for Jazz," which is still my go-to book for things like this.
I made a super-handy worksheet for scale patterns, which you can download here:
https://bit.ly/3b7TyR2
Cheers. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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Eliot Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 123 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Practicing scales |
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Eliot wrote: |
FWIW a couple of observations from personal experience.
1) I am attempting to get up to a graded level of Australian standard trumpet playing.
2) the graded level exams expect various scales to be performed from memory, sans music.
3) I had been practising all scales as in a "bracket" of music, but was having trouble with both F# and C# major and minor scales.
4) I took them out of the "bracket" of scales and repeated, repeated, repeated.
5) Eventually they are being written somewhere in the old grey matter or where ever automaticity forms. |
BTW I haven't given up on practising the "bracket" of scales. But I am making a conscious effort of doing the F# and C# scales as a separate and very distinct practise routine atm. _________________ Eliot
Rank amateur, still upright and trying hard.
Yamaha YTR6335RC
B&S 150A Alto-Tenor Horn
Yamaha FZ8n (motorcycle)
Conn 83B (trumpet) |
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